Ubuntu is too fat... Is Puppy the answer?

[gurk]

Hi everyone!

I have a fanless AMD Excavator v2 laptop. Needless to say, it is a weird machine. Right now I'm running Ubuntu 20.04, which works really well until it runs out of RAM (4GB). Also, whenever I run more than one program it chokes because it sucks at multithreading. I've considered installing ChromeOS to speed it up, but I'd rather not unless I have to.

I'm looking for a distro that is small and fast, but also has an emphasis on newer HW support. It has to be Debian/Gnome 3- based, and being Ubuntu-based is a huge plus (though so long as it has apt and Ubuntu repos I'm happy). I know Gnome 3 is a resource hog but it's necessary.

I would like to install Puppy and change the DE to Gnome 3. Will all the gnome apps, like Software center and gnome extensions, continue to work like on Ubuntu?

When can we expect a version of Puppy based on 20.04? Can I just make one in 15 minutes with Woof?

And, if Puppy really is based on Ubuntu, how on earth do you guys make it so small? What's the difference between Puppy and Debiandog? Is it like Linux mint vs LMDE?

BTW, I did search the forum but your search bar doesn't accept words like "ubuntu" or "debiandog" because they're too common. The FAQ was really bare-bones too, and I checked google but unfortunately all the links there led me to the old forum. I'm sorry to hear about John.

Thank you!!

[rockedge]

You can try out BionicDog which uses apt, apt-get and is from the creator of DebianDog.
https://debiandog.github.io/doglinux/zz ... icdog.html

Home page -> https://debiandog.github.io/doglinux/

It's compact and has the package manager you are used to.

I will let some of the real experts explain the differences between Puppy Linux, DebianDog and WeeDog which should begin happening soon.

[TerryH]

Welcome to the forum. If not having a puppy or dog provided with Gnome 3 is a show stopper, then unfortunately you are out of luck. There a none. There are no puppies with apt provided natively either, puppies use PPM (Puppy Package Manager).

I have provided a link to DpupBuster64 by josejp2424. This puppy comes with the latest Mate 1.24.0 Desktop. It doesn't have apt directly, but has access to apt functionality provided by the included pkg Package Manager by Scottman. It has access to the Debian repos. It also has Puppy traditional PPM included. It should run very nicely on your laptop.


viewtopic.php?f=33&t=64

[wiak]

Well, BionicDog is to a large extent a slimmed down frugal installable Ubuntu. It is thus fully Ubuntu-compatible, with apt and Synaptics package manager, so you could install Gnome onto it, though will likely need some configuration, which I'm sure BionicDog developer, fredx181, could help you with.

wiak

[bigpup]

I suggest you download one of the Puppy versions.
Install it to a USB flash drive.
Boot the computer with it.
See how Puppy Linux works.

You may discover you like it the way it is.

With all the stuff you want.
You seem to want to turn Puppy Linux into Ubuntu and make it look and work like Ubuntu.

Puppy Linux is very much it's own OS, with very much Puppy ways of operating.
Most programs, that come already installed, are very much Puppy coded software.
But, it has to use the common core Linux programs and files, that all Linux OS's need to work.
Thus, it can get these files from the repositories of other Linux OS's.
Why do this?
Because Puppy Linux does not have a big repository of Linux OS software, that is constantly updated and taken care of, by a dedicated software management team.
Only reason Puppy Linux developers say their Puppy version is say, Ubuntu (whatever version) based. It uses core Linux OS software from that Ubuntu version repository, so good chance, software compiled for that version of Ubuntu, will also work in this version of Puppy. They are both using the same core Linux software.

All versions of Puppy Linux are slightly different. They are not all the same.

Also, no way can a 300-400 MB OS, have every possible needed piece of software, to support every piece of hardware.
Most hardware will be supported, but sometimes, something may need to be added.
Usually, it has to have, added support, for some very, very, new network device.
We help people, all the time, figure out what they need to add, to support some unsupported piece of hardware.

[taersh]

Can I just make one in 15 minutes with Woof?

No, you can't.

Probably you could build your own Puppy using WoofCE, but this needs to have all files to build already available. This won't happen until there's the first Puppy based on Ubuntu 20.04 available and all files uploaded to WoofCE. Even though, this will take much more time than just 15 Minutes. So, it would be much more comfortable to download such Puppy based on 20.04.

However: I would like to suggest just to download some Puppies already available and play with it for a while. You can remaster to your own needs, which is much more easy than to build from WoofCE. Nowadays I'm running my own WoofCE builds, so I know what I'm talking about. To build a Puppy the first time, without having the files uploaded to WoofCe is even much more complicated, takes a lot of time and needs continuity on testings by other users and/or members of the forum.

Remastering was the way I created my first Puppies for my own needs or to be published. It's pretty simple and easy to do. Help is on the forum, if there's any help needed.

[bigpup]

When can we expect a version of Puppy based on 20.04?

Fossapup64 9.0.4
viewtopic.php?p=212#p212
It is still in final testing stage, looking for bugs, but it is a very good working version of Puppy, as it is now.
Any bugs are minor ones.

I am posting this from a Running Fossapup64 9.0.4

[gurk]

Thanks everyone! I'm getting a little confused though on how puppy is related to Ubuntu...

Puppy is based on Ubuntu, right? I tried googling for differences between Ubuntu and puppy, and I found this thread on the old forum (archive.org) which says they're completely different. What's going on?

If Fossapup is going to be based on ubuntu, does that mean apt is replaced with ppm during remastering? Can I reinstall apt with ppm? Can i install gnome 3 with ppm?

If puppy is based on Ubuntu, why does bionicdog exist? I'm guessing to restore Ubuntu compatibility? Does that mean bionicdog is just Ubuntu with JWM?

Perhaps most importantly, is there a resource somewhere that explains what exactly is changed when Ubuntu is remastered into puppy? That would answer most of my questions.

I appreciate your help!

[666philb]

hi gurk ,

puppy isn't a remastered ubuntu, we just use their repositories (or debian, or arch, or slackware, or devuan, or mageia) in a proportion of the build as well as our own packages. using packages from a particular repository to build puppy makes it compatible (to a degree) with their repositories. so in fossapup you can install stuff from the ubuntu-focal-fossa repos and most (not all) stuff works as we used some of its libs to build fossapup.

we have dpups (debian) upups (ubuntu) slackopups (slackware) archpups (arch) there's even a few mageia pups out there.

no apt-get, but we do have a package manager and a cli package manager called pkg

puppy is unique! and the best way to see that it is to give it a try .

[1jss]

Hi gurk,

I'm also new to the Puppy world so I'll try to explain it as an outsider and then I kindly ask the veterans to correct me.

So Puppy is not based on Ubuntu in the same way that Lubuntu or Xubuntu is based on Ubuntu. Puppy is not a remaster of Ubuntu.

Puppy can be built fully separate from Ubuntu. The connection to Ubuntu is that during the build of Puppy Linux it can be configured to use the package versions shipped in Ubuntu. If you look at the Puppy Linux download page you can find Puppy versions that use packages from Ubuntu 18.04, 16.04 and 14.04. But you can also find Puppy versions that are configured to use packages from other distros as well. Slacko Puppy uses packages found in Slackware Linux and Raspup uses packages found in Raspbian which is Debian.

Remastering is a different thing than building from scratch. You remaster a Puppy when you install an existing Puppy version, edit it's content of applications and/or configurations and then make it into a new installable ISO. The new Puppy is then based on the former Puppy and is said to be a remaster.

Hope this answers some of your questions!

(Oups, just realized 666philb was faster. I'll leave my reply here anyways.)

[bigpup]

Puppy is based on Ubuntu, right?

No!
Puppy is based on no other Linux OS.
It uses core Linux files and programs that all Linux OS's need to work. These are not specific to a Linux OS. All Linux OS's use them.
Puppy Linux gets these core Linux files and programs from repositories maintained by other Linux OS's.
The rest of Puppy Linux is purely Puppy Linux. How it works, what is in it, a lot of the programs are specifically Puppy coded and developed, It is a completely different OS.

However, for example:
Bionicpup gets it's core Linux files from the Ubuntu Bionic repository. Same files needed just to be a Linux OS.
If you download a Ubuntu Bionic compiled program, it has a good chance of also working in Bionicpup.
Both OS's are using the same core Linux stuff.
Thus Bionicpups's Puppy Package Manager can access Ubuntu Bionic repositories for added software.
But this is not 100% sure to always get a program that works in Bionicpup.
Some program packages are compiled expecting stuff to already be in Ubuntu Bionic and that stuff is not in Bionicpup.

[bigpup]

You seem to ask why so many Puppy versions?

Because people can build Puppy from scratch anyway they want it.
The name is up to the builder.
What is in it is up to the builder.
Most try to follow the basic way Puppy Works.
So, in that way they are all similar.

There are actually about 300+ different Puppy Linux versions!

Stop thinking Ubuntu and what it has and operates like.

Just go download a version of Puppy, that you want to try, and try it.
You may find you like the programs in Puppy better, than what you think you want to use.

[gurk]

OK thanks everyone, that was really helpful. It sounds like I just need to try it out. I haven't heard of any other linux distro that operates this way (where users can make hundreds of remasters with different repos or other customizations) so puppy seems very interesting.

using packages from a particular repository to build puppy makes it compatible (to a degree) with their repositories. so in fossapup you can install stuff from the ubuntu-focal-fossa repos and most (not all) stuff works as we used some of its libs to build fossapup.

Does this mean, even if I don't have apt, I can still install anything (or almost anything) in the Ubuntu repos? That's great!

I'll be trying out fossapup this weekend. Wish me luck!

[taersh]

Does this mean, even if I don't have apt, I can still install anything (or almost anything) in the Ubuntu repos? That's great!

Yes. FossaPup will give access to you to the Ubuntu Repository of Ubuntu 20.04 (if that's what FossaPup is made from) via the Puppy Package Manager (PPM). But: not all programs may work immediately. However: help is on the forum. Best is to ask questions in FossaPup topic when problems appear on installing/using programs from Ubuntu Fossa repository.

Good luck!

[gurk]

Ok, I just tried it. I couldn't get gnome to work no matter what I did. Kind of what I expected.

I realize Fossa is still a release candidate though, so I'll wait for it to be released and then maybe I'll ask about it. So far, puppy seems really fast, but changing the DE is difficult and aside from gnome DE not starting, some gnome apps (like software center) also had their own problems. Maybe I'll wait for a gnome-based puppy.

[taersh]

I never used the Gnome desktop. Changing the Desktop is hard as you have to setup anything on your own. But I've used some different window managers, as I don't like JWM very much. There's Openbox, Fluxbox and IceWM I used, but I don't like to switch window managers each and every time in new Puppies available. So I gave up and just modifying JWM to my needs.

However: I like Puppy Linux and don't want to use any other operating system anymore. I'm a full time Puppy user since 2012, have learned a lot from the forum's members and now being able to build a system for my own needs within one day.

[gurk]

...have learned a lot from the forum's members and now being able to build a system for my own needs within one day.

That sounds nice. Maybe one day I'll get to that point and I'll just make my own gnome puppy.

But at the moment, I'm using this computer for school. Google Drive integration, GSConnect, and touchscreen usability are unfortunately pretty important. Not to mention Gnome calendar integrating with my Google calendar, Gnome software center with seamless access to flathub and snap, etc etc etc...

I'd be giving up a lot by switching even to XFCE, nevermind to JWM or Openbox. And a lot of the things I'm using daily are also the most "beta" in Gnome, so even if I got Gnome somehow working there's no telling if the bleeding-edge features I'm using will also work.

I might play with puppy for a couple weeks later this year though, to see if I can get Gnome running. We'll see.

[Trobin]

There is this
https://sourceforge.net/projects/puppygnome342/

It is not ubuntu based though, but it shows, at least, that Gnome can be made to work on puppy.

[JASpup]

Maybe I'll wait for a gnome-based puppy.

Here more intermediate, most of the replies you are receiving are experts, but we each have a unique perspective. If you are advanced with DEs you can try GNOME, but if you aren't I would warn about a strong bias for the default environment. Second is LXDE/Qt+Openbox which in my opinion offers few advantages, and third is XFCE which I use in a vague niche half the time.

If that's a top need I would start looking for other GNOME distros.

If I missed this answer, imagine the entire os in a tar.gz shoved read-only into ram then splayed out to look like a normal file system even though it's just a few compressed files. That's why it's so small. That's also why it's more secure and run as root with moderate consideration of firewalls.

If I were undergrad CS-level from an outsider perspective I would be looking at how to apply the frugal system to meet my wishes and otherwise not expect familiarity.

Iow, if you want to make an old computer work better you might try Puppy as Puppy, but if you want to achieve your vision, if I were not an expert I would not embark.

Expect to use the PPM in Puppy instead of Ubuntu package utilities. There is some growling over it, but personally I think it's better.

There's a degree of user customization vs. 'getting with the program'.

Once you realize, you'll understand Puppy is a different animal for an apples:oranges comparison to Ubuntu, mostly with how we run frugally.

Are you running Ubuntu live or installing it? That will make a difference in how ram is used. For us a live boot vs. frugal install is similar.