If you remove a built in package, is in layered fs or in the pup sfs?

[vtpup]

Not sure I'm phrasing this very well.... referring here to the "Remove Built in Package" utility in Tahrpup's (6.0.5, frugal) Setup menu.

My question is, does that just blank it out virtually in the layered filesystem, or does it actually alter the Puppy sfs file on disk?

If you do remove a program, can it be restored?

I guess if it alters the Puppy sfs on disk, it would be simple to just bring in a new copy of that file and delete the old one, but if not and the deletion is something that negates the app and dependencies in the layered filkesystem, what would you do to restore it?

Pardon the faulty concepts if I'm misspeaking here, and thanks for clarifications.

[puddlemoon]

This utility does just "hide" the item, the .sfs remains unchanged. For each item "removed" there is a whiteout file (hidden file with the prefix .wh. ) placed in the save (top) layer which causes the file to be "skipped" at boot. The .wh. files can be removed and the item return but they can only be seen in /initrd/pup_rw a.k.a. your actual save at /mnt/home, and you need to know where to look. there is no dependency check, just a .wh. per item removed as far as I understand.

Hope that helps (:

[vtpup]

Thanks Jackalpup, I looked in /mnt/home hidden files but could not find files with the .wh prefix, and only a couple hidden folders altogether.

I guess I should get specific and also say I'd like to restore vlc, which had been removed, via the menu utility.

[puddlemoon]

Ok, maybe I should have specified, you'll be looking in your save folder in your install directory at /mnt/home e.g. /mnt/home/tarpup/tarpupsave or similar. And/initrd/pup_rw is kinda the system's way to the same directory. They mirror each other so to speak. It's a symlink that points to the currently loaded save.
So you should find the .wh.vlc in /initrd/pup_rw/usr/bin (or usr/local/bin) . The whiteout files stay in the location of the "removed" file/folder. you could go to the same location in your save folder or open both for fun.
Reboot after removing the .wh. And you should have vlc working again. I'm not certain where vlc was installed on tarpup but that is my best guess. Hopefully a little more clear (:

[vtpup]

Thanks Puddlemoon. I couldn't find a removed/ in /usr/bin nor any folders at all there, just files. Also a pfind search for a removed/ folder turned up nothing likely. Finally I did a pfind on .wh.vlc, and did get a hit. Location was in /root/.packages/builtin_files/ . That must be specific to Tahrpup.

So I've deleted .wh.vlc and will reboot after writing this to see what happens. Fingers crossed!

[vtpup]

Well, vlc came back but when I try to open it in console I get a:

"/usr/bin/vlc: error while loading shared libraries: libvlc.so.5: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory"

checking /usr/lib/libvlc.so.5 I find it's a link to a missing libvlc.so.5.4.0

[Phoenix]

Possibly that is whited out too, meaning you navigate to the relevant path and delete the whiteout file.

[vtpup]

Thanks Phoenix, but no, .wh.vlc was the only file in the whiteout folder.

What seems odd to me is that if I go in a clean frugal Tahr personal savefile, I do not find the libvlc.so 5.x files in usr/lib, yet they are standard installs, and vlc was standard in Tahr. Presumably vlc is functional and has all dependencies. I was hoping to grab a copy of the missing lib and move it over.

Another oddity in the problem instance is that the puppy application installer says that libvlc so 5.x is already installed, but pfind cannot find any libvlc files.

There must be a list maintained internally of installed packages and I'm wondering if it has faulty entries in it.

[amethyst]

If you remove an application via the builtin application all elements of that application is supposed to be removed (hidden). This means that all files of the application wherever they were installed (different locations) should have whiteout entries. To see which files were builtin for vlc (and the installed locations), check /root/.packages/builtin_files/vlc

[vtpup]

Thanks Amethyst. The file /root/.packages/builtin_files/vlc is a text file that does seem to list all the dependencies VLC needs, and included in that list is libvlc.so.5 and libvlc.so.5.4.0 supposedly in /usr/lib. But those actual files are absent from /usr/lib.

Also there are no .wh prefixed vlc support files in /root/.packages/builtin_files/ . Nor other .wh files. In fact, a search using pfind on the term .wh finds nothing at all in this entire installation. The only .wh file found was the .wh.vlc file removed earlier.

[vtpup]

I don't know if the following has any bearing, or is just a red herring, but problems started when I tried to install vlc-2.2.0_tahr from the official repository, as an upgrade from 2.1.6, which is the version I believe was originally built in. There are multiple VLC 2.1.6 files installed.

Might be wrong on that. Maybe the built in version IS 2.2.0. Anyway 2.2.0 is presently listed by the PPM as installed already. It does not show up as a removable entry if the PPM Uninstall button is pushed. That led me to think it is considered a built-in application.

Earlier, to try to start from square one, I did the "remove built in packages" process on it from the menu.

Then I asked the OT question above, how to re-enable a standard puppy function after using the "remove built in packages" process.

We removed .wh.vlc.

Vlc then came back, but minus some dependencies. That's the current problem.

[amethyst]

Have you made many changes to your system so far? Perhaps it would be better to start afresh without your savefile (discard the old one). A tip: I never use the remove builtin feature. If I want to remove something permanently, I do so by manually removing the files as listed (like I mentioned). So you actually edit the base sfs and rebuild it. This is also the safest and cleanest way to do it, the remove builtin application does not always work as it should.

[vtpup]

Yes Amethyst, unfortunately it is a several years old frugal installation with lots of apps, settings, etc, which would be hard to replace. I don't work in it all the time now, dividing the workload with Bionic 64. But some more oddball things I need only seem to work in the old Tahrpup. Especially early wine 32 apps very occasionally needed.

Anyway, thanks for letting me know that remove built-in progs may have flaws. That would explain it.

I guess from this point on, I would just like to get SOME version of VLC running in the old Tahr, I don't care which. If I could just remove it entirely and then bring in a .pet or SFS with it functional, that would be great.

[amethyst]

Have you tried to uninstall the vlc version you installed via the package manager?

[vtpup]

I can't It isn't listed as one of the programs in the Uninstall portion of the PPM.

[amethyst]

I can't It isn't listed as one of the programs in the Uninstall portion of the PPM.

Do a remaster, if there are any whiteout files somewhere, those files will be excluded. After the remaster boot with the remastered base sfs and without your old savefile. Then try to do a new install of vlc (a version that you know works with Tahr) or load a vlc sfs for Tahr.

[vtpup]

Sorry Amethyst, that doesn't make a difference. For some reason PPM says VLC 2.2.0 Tahr is already installed. Even though it isn't. It won't let me install it again.

There must be some internal list of installed apps that PPM is using, with inorrect info.

Here's a snapshot of PPM:

[amethyst]

What that picture shows, is what packages CAN be installed. To see what user packages you have installed, click the Uninstall button in the package manager and then try to uninstall the items you want to ininstall from that list (if you haven't done so yet). Just reporting the obvious but you never know.....

[bigpup]

There must be some internal list of installed apps that PPM is using, with inorrect info.

For stuff you install using PPM, deb packages, or pet packages.
The installed info PPM uses, is provided by the user-installed-packages file, in /var/packages

Also in /var/packages, a specific info file is usually made, for a specific program install, with info about what it installed and where.

If there is one for VLC 2.2.0
Delete it.
See if PPM will now let you install VLC.

[Misaligned]

@vtpup, not sure if you already found a solution for your problem, if not give this a try:
As amethyst (I believe it was him) already mentioned, you might want to look at
/root/.packages/builtinfiles/vlc, just open as text, that should list all your dependencies for vlc.

Additionally, if you boot into RAM (no savefile loaded) you should still have a working vlc?
Now you can open a terminal and type "ldd /usr/bin/vlc" which should also give you a list of
library dependencies. If you want to save this into a text file, type "ldd /usr/bin/vlc > path to where you
want to save the file/vlc-depends.txt". You can use a different filename to save this. But this way
you could compare this to the listed dependencies in the vlc file. There are a lot of dependencies ,
meaning a lot of .wh files.

If you now mount your save file, just navigate to it in ROX and click on it, which should open a seperate
ROX Filer window, with the content of your save file. Now open a Terminal window at this location (right
click). Once you have the Terminal open type "find ./ -name .wh*". That should give you the location of all
your .wh files. Be aware they are spread out everywhere. Now you can hunt down all these files in your mounted save file folder structure and delete them. Might want to make a copy of your savefile first.
Just make sure you only delete those that are listed as dependencies - you might have removed more
built-in packages. Once you are done deleting those files, just unmount your save file and reboot as usual.

Hope this gets you a step further ahead. I did not go through the exercise myself, just too many files
involved.

[vtpup]

Hi Amethyst, thanks again for trying to help!

Just to let you know, I've been using puppy every day for over a decade, so PPM usage is well understood. In Tahrpup, at least (and possibly others) the green circles with check marks at the bottom of a query (when present) in the Install window indicate files which are already installed. These may be built-in files, and if so they do not show up in the PPM Uninstall window.

In my case, none of the files I marked "Nope" show up in the Uninstall window. Not only that, but these files are actually also not present in my system -- I've looked at the locations where they are supposed to reside, and they aren't there. Also running PFind for them also turns up nothing.

Bigpup, thanks kindly I think you've just given me a good shot at figuring out why I can't correct the problem so far. I'll check out the var locations -- I have a strong feeling that will resolve the issue of why PPM thinks packages are installed when they are not.

Misaligned, yes I have already looked at the text entries for VLC, but most of the listed files are not present. I will try the procedures you mentioned and see what I get. Thanks very much for your suggestions and I will report back!

[vtpup]

There must be some internal list of installed apps that PPM is using, with inorrect info.

For stuff you install using PPM, deb packages, or pet packages.
The installed info PPM uses, is provided by the user-installed-packages file, in /var/packages

Also in /var/packages, a specific info file is usually made, for a specific program install, with info about what it installed and where.

If there is one for VLC 2.2.0
Delete it.
See if PPM will now let you install VLC.

Sorry Bigpup, no joy. In Tahrpup there is no /var/packages/ folder. There is a var/log/packages folder with a few entries , but it does not contain any VLC entries. In Tahr, the main listing of installed programs is located in /root/.packages/ and in its subfolder /root/.packages/builtin_files/ . Those are very extensive with approximately a thousand packages between the two of them. Oddly VLC is not in either folder nor are libvlc.xxx etc. Nothing to do with vlc is there. This is what is confusing. Why is PPM listing the several VLC files shown in the screenshot as installed, when they are not, and are not listed in .packages?

There must be some other place where PPM is maintaining a list of what it thinks is installed.

Why is all this important? Because PPM will NOT allow you to install a file it says is already installed. For example it will not allow me to install vlc-2.2.0_tahr.pet because it says it is already installed. But it isn't.

To solve this I need to find where PPM is getting its information that it is installed, and alter that so I can install it.

[vtpup]

@Misaligned:

I have the list of VLC dependencies as a text file. It is about 1000 entries long.

I tried looking for .wh files using console in a pfix=ram instance of Tahr, with console opened in the top level of the problem Tahrsave file, and got the following error msg:

root# find ./ -name .wh*
find: paths must precede expression: .wh..wh.aufs
Usage: find [-H] [-L] [-P] [-Olevel] [-D help|tree|search|stat|rates|opt|exec] [path...] [expression]

[puddlemoon]

Another thought at this point... Are the "nope" file present in a pfix=ram boot? If so you could copy those files to your save. If they are not you could use ppm to install them and copy them over.

[williams2]

This: find ./ -name .wh*
could be find ./ -name '.wh*.'
or find /initrd/pup_ro2/ -name '.wh*.'

Running BionicPup64, /initrd/pup_ro2/ is the original file system, before any changes. So this lists all the files (and directories) with vlc in the name that are in the original file system:
find /initrd/pup_ro2/ | grep -i vlc
or
find /initrd/pup_ro2/ | grep -i --color vlc
or also looking for builtin:
find /initrd/pup_ro2/ | grep -i --color vlc | grep builtin

If I had a save file or save folder, I could search in /initrd/pup_rw/
find /initrd/pup_rw/ | grep -i --color vlc

The paths might be different in TahrPup.

[bigpup]

What exact version of Tahrpup is this problem in?

Yes it matters.

Tahrpup had a lot of different versions and each one was slightly different.

A lot of changes to Puppy Linux, was being done, during the time of Tahrpup development.

The bad thing is, a lot of the better changes to the overall operation of Puppy, is not in Tahrpup.

[bigpup]

Sorry for my bad info earlier.
I should know better, to try an give advice about a specifc Puppy version, not actually running it, at the time.
Every one of them is slightly different.

I booted a fresh clean install of Tahrpup64 6.0.5
It does have some parts of VLC in it.
For some reason, the Pale Moon browser has a VLC plugin.

In /root/.packages/builtin_files
There are two files for VLC
vlc
vlc-browser-plugin

These two files look like the info that PPM is probably seeing.

Vlc stuff is probably only stuff needed for the plugin, but to PPM it looks like VLC complete.

Because this stuff is builtin and in the read only tahrpup sfs.
Try to use the program remove builtin packages.
remove vlc
This should white list the vlc stuff so the file system will not see it.
Reboot, updating the save, so vlc is nolonger seen installed.

Now try PPM to install complete VLC.

NOTE:
This worked for me to get PPM to try and download VLC from it.
However, the repositories it searches seem to now be dead for getting downloads.
Most are old Ubuntu repositories and they seem to no longer be activated.
It starts to download, but keep getting error packages not available.

Best option is look in this forum Additional Software -> Multimedia for some VLC pets or SFS.

[vtpup]

I think this may be the clue Bigpup. I had tried your suggested method of getting rid of VLC first via the Remove Packages utility, then tried to reinstall. The same thing you experienced happened -- missing files from reporitories. The result, I think is, though install aborted, some flag somewhere was set saying the installation happened. Even though it aborted. Therefore PPM now thinks it's installed.

I'm mulling over just giving up on Tahrpup. The biggest issue for me is that I use it for a bunch of obscure occasionally used progs, often in Wine. These are things like laser cutter drivers, the old free Google Sketchup with lots of old Ruby add-ons to make it functional -- including outputting .dwg files, SketchUcam. stuff like that. And in tests, they don't function fully In bionic64.

But I guess I could double boot back to Tahr on those occasions when I need to, and make my main day to day usage on BP64.

The only other problem I've encountered is in Seamonkey, where a relatively recent upgrade destroyed all stored passwords for websites. My mail is in that newer version, but still on Tahr. Luckily the BP64 version had not been upgraded, so still retains the old pwds. But no mail. If I move mail over, I'll probably have to upgrade BP64's Seamonkey to accept it, and lose passwords.

I guess that's pretty irrelevant to the original topic here, and well it just means work to try to record all of those before the change-over. But Tahr is beginning to look unworkable if PPM is no longer working correctly, and I'm losing programs like VLC.

Guess I better bite the bullet instead wasting people's time here trying to prop up a dying OS.

[vtpup]

@Williams2, thanks -- sorry saw Bigpup's last post first before yours and answered that one above before yours.

I was successful in doing the search after all by just trying the search terms in pfind on "all files". It actually did turn up .wh files all over the place (not just in /root/.packages. Just like Misaligned said. I did delete all those which seemed related to VLC, but the task is daunting, since there are a thousand entries in the list of VLC file dependencies.

I did get VLC to open initially in console, but it failed with error messages about missing dependencies. I didn't go further at that point as it was getting late, and I was starting to lose heart about my reasons for wanting to stay with Tahr. Thank you for your help, though. People put a lot of energy into issues in this community, and I'm grateful for that.

[vtpup]

Puddlemoon, good suggestion, but as I mentioned, those files are really just package names, and actual installation of the package may mean (and does mean in this case) hundreds of dependency files from diverse sources (for the Ubuntu packages). so you can't actually search for those names as standalone programs, and transfer them over from a clean pfix install.

Thank you kindly for your help, though!