Helping new users - Creating bootable, CD, USB

[mikewalsh]

@keniv / @wizard :-

@Ken:- Edge is definitely 64-bit only, I'm afraid. Even M$ - who clung to 32-bit OSs way past the point of sheer cussedness - will, to the best of my knowledge, be dropping 32-bit versions of Windows very shortly, IF they haven't done so already.

32-bit browsers are becoming a rarity. The two remaining Chromium-based browsers that still supported 32-bit were Iron & Slimjet.....and as you well know, the end of the road came for those sometime last year. Vivaldi, IIRC, pulled the plug a year prior to that.

Only 'zilla-based browsers now support 32-bit-only hardware under Linux; primarily Firefox - both mainline 'Quantum' & ESR - and to a lesser degree, PaleMoon, though these are not 'official' builds, rather 3rd-party builds (thanks, Steve Pusser!) which have been given official sanction by Moonchild Productions.

-----------------------------------

Understand; next year will mark the 20th anniversary of the official arrival of 64-bit hardware onto the computing scene. Yes, that's right; the very first commercially-viable - and successful - 64-bit CPU was launched in September 2003.....the immortal AMD Athlon 64, which powered my own recently-expired older rig. It would have been legally-allowed to purchase its own booze as of last year!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlon_64

There's still a ton of second-hand 32-bit hardware circulating round the second-hand and reseller's market-places. TBH, nobody wants it now. Where's the point in buying a type of computer hardware that is rapidly losing software support from all directions? I mean, you can pick up halfway-decent Dell Latitudes with a 64-bit Core2Duo for around £50-60 on many auction and reseller sites like Gumtree or eBay. I think the Pentium 4s were probably pretty much the last gasp of the peak of 32-bit dominance; you're there talking about 20-25 years ago. It's why I've finally retired the anciente Dell lappie; if I personally run an OS, it's got to be able to get online. Any browser pegs the P4 at 100%, and waiting for anything to actually happen is like watching paint dry. It's painful.

The Inspiron's been a faithful companion for nearly 19 years, but she's had her day. But it pisses me off no end, because everything still functions fully, 100%. And I just don't see the point in sending stuff that works to the tip.

@rockedge :-

32-bit Firefox still functions 100%, and is still being produced.....it's available from the FF release site:-

http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/releases/

The crunch-point is whether any 32-bit CPU/system has actually got the grunt to meet its demands. That's where things rapidly go to hell in a hand-basket..... It's a paradoxical, and ironically sad fact, that it's only in recent years that hardware now has the "grunt" to really let 32-bit browsers shine.

As for the loss of DRM ability on 32-bit, that's simple. Despite the fact that there's several DRM technologies out there, Google's proprietary WideVine technology gained 100% market dominance, and everybody coded their browsers to use it. Then 5 years ago, Google made the decision (and announced that fact) to drop 32-bit WideVine support by the end of May 2021. They DID give everybody fair warning. And.....it happened. And is now history. And was hardly unexpected, given that Big Brother have been pushing for everyone to move to 64-bit for at least the last 8 years.....

(*shrug*)

Mike.

[Feek]

But there is an inherent problem with community presentations of ReMasters that I have hoped the WoofCE developers or forum members would have solve by now over the many years I see PUPs have been around. That problem, from my point of view, is that when booting a remaster on a PC where the "original' PUP distro was run, the remaster picks up the save-sessions found for the distro it intends to replace! This is BAD!!! on so many fronts, yet has gone without attention.

Just thoughts..

A completely new user will be happy, that he will manage to put just one puppy into operation.
He may start playing with more puppies/remasters later, but will be already more experienced.

If I´m not wrong, the frugal installation allows the user to create (manually) multiple boot entries for folders with different puppies/remasters.
The kernel line can be used to define exactly where to save and from where to load changes (saved sessions) for a given puppy/remaster.

[wizard]

@Clarity

Your Thoughts?

Have not encountered this issue, but will test.

Thanks
wizard

[keniv]

@wizard

Other possible pluses for using a remaster:
-we can change the desktop (curb appeal)
-we can add user friendly help files

Examples of this can be seen here:
viewtopic.php?t=709&start=190 pg20 post3
and here:
viewtopic.php?t=4681 pg1 post1

I followed the second of your links to the download links to friendly-fossa64-rc1.iso and friendly-fossa64-rc2.iso with a view to downloading and trying to produce a bootable cd based on the instructions. However, rc1 is shown to be 809MB and rc2 845MB so neither could be burned to a cd with a capacity of 700MB. I appreciate they could be burned to a dvd but I think a new user would find this confusing and indeed may not notice the size of the iso files and attempt to make a bootable cd that would fail.

@mikewalsh
Thanks for a comprehensive explanation of the current position as far as browsers are concerned and in particular 32bit browsers. As you know I've had my own problems with 32bit browsers gradually disappearing as I still use a 32 bit machine in my shed. I did wonder if, because of this, the "target" machines should be restricted to 64bit machines. From my own point of view I am not in favour of doing this as I think that some new users will be those trying to resurrect 32bit machines which in other respects are still usable.
@wizard made the comment below.

One thing currently missing on ALL 32bit browsers is the ability to stream video that uses DRM (digital rights management). This means commercial movies on Netfix, Tubi, Crackle, Youtube, etc. can't be played.

I don't use any of these so it's not an issue and I do wonder how much of an issue it would be for those trying to resurrect old 32bit machines. I'd be interested in the views of others on this.

Regards,

Ken.

[wizard]

@keniv

However, rc1 is shown to be 809MB and rc2 845MB so neither could be burned to a cd with a capacity of 700MB

You are correct, but the links given were examples only. Friendly-fossa64 was only intended for USB install (which is covered by instructions on the topic). It would have to be remastered to fit on a CD (the plan anyway).

There are only a few cases where a 64bit CD would be used.
-pre 2005 = 32bit = no
-2005 = dual core & 64bit = can boot from USB

So, a 64bit CD would just be an alternate and not a necessity.

Friendly-bionic32 would be considered a beta, and again just an example. It has been remastered
and I'll post when it's available.

I do wonder how much of an issue it (movies) would be for those trying to resurrect old 32bit machines. I'd be interested in the views of others on this.

Another pitfall, there was a period when a lot of dual core 32bit computers were sold, particularly laptops,I have owned several. These machines are quite capable of viewing streaming video on the web.

Thanks
wizard

[tosim]

@keniv I, for one, do agree with you that the users setting up older hardware probably are not that much interested in streaming movies, dl'ing netflix, etc. Mainly, getting a
fully working OS (like Puppy, or Dog), would make them happy.

[rockedge]

I also have a 32 bit DELL laptop which runs Windows 10 and dual boots with Bionic32, WDL32-Void, and now very nicely, VoidPup32. VoidPup32 has such a huge performance advantage over Window 10. The M$ OS runs a little bit less then okay on this 32 bit only INSPIRON 1505E, but I use it to run tax software that only runs on Windows, once a year. Otherwise I boot to update the M$ thing occasionally. Long ago I was able to actually add GRUB4DOS to the HDD and chain to the Windows boot loader so it is really easy to add frugal OS's as long as they are 32 bit.

The machine runs better than ever going on VoidPup32. Sooooo much difference between it and Windows it's mind blowing. Running Firefox 96.0.2 but I have not tested streaming with it yet

[wizard]

@keniv

and all

Here is the friendly-bionic32-rc1 remaster, would add this to the recommended list.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/friend ... o/download

Thanks
wizard

[Clarity]

@wizard it appears you are the only one verifying my presenting the problem of Remaster and its effect on the original PUP it is remastered from.

This is not just a FossaPUP64 dilemma and I think I did make that clear.

I made clear that the REmasters, which members have presented on the forum, are Excellent works and that the Remaster program is excellent in making a new "remastered" PUP/DOG from its running system.

Yet, buried in this remastering is this back-end problem of clobbering any prior Session that may exist on reboot.

Maybe, @wizard this explanation make it a little easier to understand.

Since I started with FossaPUP64 I will address it using @666philb's WoofCE FossaPUP64. I will refer to this as 'BASE', herein.

Example, again
I boot FossaPUP64, tailor it as ALL users usually do, and in the end I save my session on the root of the partition where Fossa was booted. Shutdown subsystem processing will create 2 necessary files for persistence that makes rebooting easy and discoverable; namely SAVESPEC and fossapup64save.

Rebooting BASE and merely hitting the enter-key at BASE's Menu, PUP's INIT subsystem will find and locate and use all files necessary in booting the BASE and the persistence, left for the BASE at the prior Shutdown. This is normal.

Later, I find (or create) a new different REmaster that I want to try on this same PC as I use for my BASE.

The new remaster will start identical to the BASE including the identical Menu to the BASE.

Its INIT subsystem will do what the BASE's INIT subsystem does including discovery of the BASE's persistence files using them in booting...which you and I know this upsets several things for both the booting remaster and the original BASE's persistence.

At this point, almost every user would NOT know that this has occurred; and you and I know the dilemma this poses: The BASE was setup, tailored and persistence create used for 1 use, while a Remaster from another forum member is tailored for things completely different. So a mess has occurred unknowingly with little knowledge that it has.

Of course, you, I, and other seasoned members know that selecting the RAM option avoids this use of the existing persistence files, but imagine yourself as a neophyte with NO experience in the understanding that, YOU, are required to select some other Menu option for a Pristine boot.

So, here we are:

Original WoofCE build where any user may initially tailor and create persistence

• fossapup64-9.5

ReMASTERs of FossaPUP64 on this forum with the same behavior for INIT processing

• cloudpup-fossa64-rc5

• friendly-fossa64-rc2

• jackalpup-0.0_full

• puppex-focal64-uefi-932mb-220201-final

• quickpup64_22.01-beta-4

AGAIN, ALL OF THESE ReMasters are excellent contributes by their authors.

As expressed, before, this dilemma is NOT limited to FossaPUP64 as it also pertains to PUPs, say, from @peebee (as well as other WoofCE developers) to any other PUP where a remaster is created.

Ideas that I was hoping members would offer are

• Add a new-name option selection to the REmaster subsystem in PUP/DOGs

OR

• Force a new-name output'd remaster

OR

• ...???

Again, "requests for THOUGHTS" on how best to bring awareness to development, for resolution. We are not fixing a bug, instead we are addressing an oversight which did not exist when PUPs was developed years ago.

Thanks @wizard for agreeing to review. And, I hope this bit of info makes it easy to observe this dilemma, by any member.

[wizard]

@rockedge

Hi Rock, here is a link to the CD/USB installers that will be recommended. Maybe make a page where a user can go to pick the one they want?

Thanks
wizard

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3jtmh81sxxlgf ... ar.gz?dl=1

[wizard]

@Clarity

Since your query is a little off topic here, suggest you start a new topic on it rather than dilute this one which should focus on creating bootable CD's or USB's.

Thanks
wizard

[keniv]

@keniv

and all

Here is the friendly-bionic32-rc1 remaster, would add this to the recommended list.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/friend ... o/download

Thanks
wizard

I have downloaded friendly-bionic32-rc1 and burned it to a cd. I could not test the suggested burning software for windows as I don't have windows so cannot comment on this. One thing I did wonder about before I first booted the cd was if the bios on the target machines would be setup to boot from a cd or a usb drive first. Will the machines with the older specs be able to boot from a usb at all? I thought a new user may not know this so I decided to choose the kind of "one time boot" option which on my machine you can select on machine start up by pressing F12. This option actually appears on the screen but I'm not sure that would be the case with other machines. It might be worth suggesting doing this when booting rather than expecting a new user to enter the bios to make sure the machine boots from a cd or usb before the hdd and perhaps having to make changes. I booted from the cd and the first thing I noticed was just how long it took to copy the "main file to ram". A new user might wonder if anything was happening so I think this would be worth a mention. I think the initial setup procedure is fine. To setup wifi I chose SNS. The box that appears first is "Profiles" and only shows a wired connection. You have to switch to "Interface" to setup wifi and the firewall which I think is straight forward. I think the desktop needs a bit of a tidy up. The icons for "Help Start Here, Mydesk and Download is that for a folder. I think if we want to attract new users a little bit of bling here in terms of icons would not go amiss. Likewise with programs installed and my-documents. Other than that I think the desktop looks good. I am using Firefox to write this post. I like the fact that uBlock is already installed. There is a lot of information attached particularly in "HELP START HERE" I have only looked at some of this. I shutdown, made a save file on an NTFS partition as I still have one and I thought this would be what most new users coming from windows would have, and allowed the .sfs to be written to this partition. I rebooted from the cd. When I first started using puppy I ran like this for about a month or more before I summoned up the nerve to attempt to dual both with windows.
Just a short look at this. I hope others will try this as if they were trying puppy for the first time and see how they get on.

Regards,

Ken.

[wizard]

@keniv

All the issues you raise will have to be addessed in more topics, we have work to do.

To setup wifi I chose SNS

Go to HELP START HERE>Topics>Internet-Setup.doc

The "download" directory is where the browser will download files by default, don't want them to have
to guess where stuff goes.

We're making progress.

wizards rule #4 "If you thinks it's done, it's not"

Thanks
wizard

[gyrog]

Looking at the situation presented by @Clarity:

1. Installing multiple copies of the same Puppy, (a re-mastered fossapup is still fossapup).

2. Specifiying the same "save location" for all Puppies.

Some background:

The base filename for a Puppy savefolder/savefile is defined by the Puppy version,
i.e. for fossapup it's always 'fossapup64save'.

When a "save location" is specified, Puppy takes the specified directory, prepends the mount-point of the specified partition,
and then looks in this directory for files with names that start with the savefolder/savefile base filename for the Puppy being booted,
if it finds such a file then it uses it, and boots in an appropriate mode.

Result:

If multiple copies of the same Puppy are installed and the same "save location" is specified for each of them,
they will all use the same savefolder/savefile.
Only the first boot of the first copy installed will actually boot as a "first boot".
The first boot of any following copies will find the existing savefolder/savefile and boot accordingly.

Solution for frugal installs:

When specifying a "save location", make it unique for each frugal install using a unique sub-directory.
While it's not necessary when there is never more than a single copy of any Puppy installed,
it's a safe habit to aquire.
e.g. Install xenialpup in '/pups/xenial' on 'sdb9', and use a "save location" in '/psaves/xenial' on 'sdc9'.

Notes:

Of course this issue does not arise if a "default" frugal install is performed, i.e. do not specify a "Separate save loaction".
Puppy will assume that the "save location" is the same as the "install location" and the savefolder/savefile will appear beside the other Puppy files of the frugal install.

Current Puppy gives users the freedom to specify the "save location" anywhere, this includes the freedom to "shoot yourself in the foot".
Unfortunately this "trap" has not been documented.
In the next version of FrugalPup (v37), there will be a warning in the "Save directory" dialog.

[mikewalsh]

@gyrog :-

Heh. I guess what Clarity & several others would like to see - indeed, I guess it could be construed as the "Holy Grail" of computing! - would be a small, lightweight OS that is so easy to boot, and so instinctive to use, that the user doesn't even need to think for themselves; just switch it on, and use it.

TBH, I guess that's what many have attempted over the years.....but I don't think ANY interpretation has, as yet, achieved this. Doesn't stop developers trying, though. (I think that's what ETP was trying to achieve some years back with his 'Mr Magoo'-type build for seniors.)

Mike.

[wizard]

********************************Draft3 Making a CD or USB for your first boot*************************
If you are using a computer that meets the system criteria in General System Requirements viewtopic.php?t=5127, then we suggest you try one of the folowing:

Mainline Distro's:
- Dpup Stretch 7.5 for 32bit computer
- Fossapup64 9.5 for 64bit computers

Remasters with some extras and better new user help files:
- Friendly-Bionic32 for 32bit computer viewtopic.php?t=5188
- Friendly-Fossa64 for 64bit computers viewtopic.php?t=4681

If you don't want to attempt to create your own CD or USB and don't have someone who can help you we suggest you try Ebay. Search "puppy linux cd or usb", several of the sellers offer to create a version of your choice.
DISCLAIMER - the Puppy Linux Forum is not affiliated with any Ebay seller.

The three common ways to do your first boot with Puppy are from CD, USB or dual boot with MS Windows. Here we will discuss making a bootable CD or USB.

Older computers will be limited to booting from a CD. If your computer is any of these you will
most likely need a CD to boot.

-made before 2005
-CPU is a single core ("Netbook" computers are one notable exception that are single core and USB bootable)

NOTE: Newer computers that have a CD/DVD drive can also use a CD to boot.

What you will need to make a bootable CD:
-A computer running MS Windows or some version of Linux, with a CD Writer drive.
-CD burning software, if you don't already have this, try one of these free programs
-----MS Windows - BurnCDCC*, (tested) available here https://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downl ... -software/ *BurnCDCC - set speed slider to CD 4X
-----Linux - XFBurn, (tested) check your official repository
-A blank writable CD

Download the Puppy Linux ISO file of your choice, then use the burning software to make
the bootable CD.

What you will need to make a bootable USB:
-A computer running MS Windows or some version of Linux.
-USB installing software, try one of these free programs
-----MS Windows - Rufus, (tested) available here https://rufus.ie/en/

If you are making the USB with a Linux computer you have to know if the target computer is
MBR or UEFI boot. Read the Your First Boot topic for help if needed.

-----Linux UEFI - Rosa Image Writer, (tested) available here http://wiki.rosalab.ru/en/index.php/ROSA_ImageWriter
-----Linux MBR - Unetbootin, (tested) available here [url]]https://unetbootin.github.io/linux_download.html[/url
-A blank USB, minimum 2gb (you should erase any existing files)

Download the Puppy Linux ISO file of your choice, then use the USB installing software to make
the bootable USB.

NOTE: You may also find most of these programs on this forum---need link from @rockedge

ALTERNATE PROGRAMS:
There are many other CD burning and USB installing programs, however, you will probably find they require more knowledge and more settings to use. For CD's, be sure you are "burning the ISO" and not just coping it to the CD. Worse, some of the programs cannot produce a Puppy USB that can be booted on some computers. We highly recommend you use one of the tested programs for best results.

Need more help? Join the forum and post your questions in Beginners Help.

[keniv]

@wizard

Draft3 Making a CD or USB for your first boot

I've had a look at the above and there's a couple of things that occur to me.

Remasters with some extras and better new user help files:
- Friendly-Bionic32 for 32bit computer viewtopic.php?t=5188
- Friendly-Fossa64 for 64bit computers viewtopic.php?t=4681

If it's your intention to post this draft, as the finished document, in the "Getting Started and System Requirements" section after any comments have been made it might be as well to miss this section out for now as these remasters, as far as I am aware, are not yet in a ready state. As you said in an earlier reply "we have work to do" on these. New users could still try the two recommended "Mainline Distro's" for now.

Need more help? Join the forum and post your questions in Beginners Help.

I'm not sure on this one but am I right in thinking that in order to download an .iso from the forum you have to be a member, If I'm wrong the above could stay as is. If I'm right then it could be re-drafted to read, "Need more help then please post your questions in Beginners Help on the Forum" or something similar.
Hope this helps.

Regards,

Ken.

[wizard]

@keniv

as far as I am aware, are not yet in a ready state.

Friendly Fossa64 rc3 is now up and reformulated for this topic. Friendly Bionic32 rc2 will be going up sometime today. Both are functionally correct to the best of my knowledge.

These remasters contain the help files new users will need to have a positive experience.

But, wizards rule #4 "If you thinks it's done, it's not", LOL

It won't be perfect, but the most important thing we do here is the giant leap from Nothing to Something.

By contrast, boot a mainline distro. Now pretend you know nothing about Puppy or even Linux in general. The mainline distros have almost no help of any kind for new users. The abandon rate goes way up with the frustration of not being able to do even simple task.

in order to download an .iso from the forum you have to be a member,

Visitors can download, but you must be a member to post in a topic

Thanks
wizard

[keniv]

@wizard
Thanks for the clarification on both of these issues.

It won't be perfect, but the most important thing we do here is the giant leap from Nothing to Something.

By contrast, boot a mainline distro. Now pretend you know nothing about Puppy or even Linux in general. The mainline distros have almost no help of any kind for new users. The abandon rate goes way up with the frustration of not being able to do even simple task.

I agree wholeheartedly with the above. I've been there.

It looks good to go then.

Regards,

Ken.

[wizard]

@rockedge

Hi Rock, the post in Getting Started and System Requirements is missing some live links

If you are using a computer that meets the system criteria in General System Requirements viewtopic.php?t=5127, then we suggest you try one of the folowing:

Mainline Distro's:
- Dpup Stretch 7.5 for 32bit computer
- Fossapup64 9.5 for 64bit computers

Remasters with some extras and better new user help files:
- Friendly-Bionic32 for 32bit computer viewtopic.php?t=5188
- Friendly-Fossa64 for 64bit computers viewtopic.php?t=4681

Thanks
wizard

[wizard]

@keniv

I agree wholeheartedly with the above. I've been there.

Me too, every time I try using a new distro. Not because they're inherently bad or worse, but just because they're inherently different.

Stay at it, you're a good sounding board and your post provoke thought.

Thanks
wizard

[wizard]

@rockedge

@mikeslr viewtopic.php?p=40522#p40522 topic on Rufus is probably not necessary and might only confuse a new user. Most of the other recommended methods also produce a read-only boot media and at this point we are only trying to get them to "first boot". Later topics will cover how to create a RW USB if desired. Mikes link is really an advanced user topic that would let a user have an ext partition and use a save folder instead of a save file. Would like to include it in a the separate Installing To USB Flash Drive topic.

The read only condition Mike notes DOES occur if the user selects "Wrte in DD image mode". Thought I had included that caveat in draft3, but nope.

rufus-dd.jpg (30.43 KiB) Viewed 735 times

wizards rule #2 "You can't check your own work"

The Rufus section should be edited to read:

-----MS Windows - Rufus, (tested) available here https://rufus.ie/en/ DO NOT use the Write in DD image mode

My test of Rufus and the recommended distros showed that just inserting a fat32 USB, selecting the ISO and accepting the defaults creates a hybrid boot USB that is RW and can contain the save file, in every case.

Thanks
wizard

Here's the defaults that come up automatically in my test.

rufus2.jpg (45.63 KiB) Viewed 735 times