Disadvantage of frugal install

[Berto]

Hello everyone,

I'm thinking if frugal is really a good solution. I know you're all proud of this feature, but think this: if I'm not contented with the main system and repartition, then my frugal puppy is gone also .. hmmm.

I think most people are thinking still they have ms windows installed, but I don't have anymore since windows 95 ..... Always blue screen, then installed redhat and suse....

So it is nice to have, but don't exaggerate this feature. In pure Linux systems it doesn't make much sense.

Regards,

Berto

[bigpup]

if I'm not contented with the main system and re-partition, then my frugal puppy is gone also

Just as it would be as a full install.

But it is simple to save a frugal install, to put back on a partition.
All a frugal install is, are all the Puppy files, inside a directory(folder).
Simply copy or move this directory(folder), to a location, it will not be deleted.
Do whatever you want to do with the partition.
Move the frugal install directory(folder) back onto the new partition.
It is back, operating like it never left.
Only change may be to the boot loader menu entry, to make it point to the correct partition, the frugal install is now on.

A full install would require a complete new total install from scratch.
It would be a completely new install.
It also would be the only Puppy that could be on that partition.

Some features of Puppy Linux are only provided by a live or frugal install.

Do you really understand a frugal install?

Frugal installs:

Can be put on any partition any format, any type storage device.

Installed alongside any other operating system, on the same partition as the other OS.
To the other OS it is seen as a folder(directory).
The two OS's never mix except for using some free space on the partition.

They load more of Puppy into RAM.

Easier to backup, because all changes, settings are in the save. The core Puppy files never change. Only what is in the save changes. All you have to do is copy the save to have a backup.
If Puppy really gets messed up. Just delete the save and replace it with the backup save.

You can easily load or unload SFS program packages.
This lets you use a program without actually installing it to Puppy. You will have to use this option to fully understand it.

All of Puppy is placed in a directory (folder).
You can have many Puppies on one partition.
All completely separate from the other.
All in different directories (Linux term for folder).

Full installs:
Must be installed to a Linux formatted partition.
Uses the entire partition.
Main advantage is it uses less memory to boot to desktop. A issue when computers only had 256MB or 512MB of memory.
Does not use layered file system.
Works best for compiling.
Does not run into size limit that a save file has on a fat32 format.

Note:
No developers of Puppy Linux are doing any real testing and bug fixes for full installs.
No new features of Puppy Linux are coded to work with full installs.

[Clarity]

Hello @Berto

As I agree with your post, in part, I draw attention to a fact of the current Linux community of distros. There are 3 types of use of almost every Linux. They are

1. Running from a BASE system

2. Running a BASE system with a "persistence" layer

3. Running a combined system with no regard for its beginning (BASE)

I, personally, call these Live (#1 & #2, above) versus Installed (#3, above)

Linux started as a combined system...same as MACs and Windows. Then came the revolution of Knoppix which was one of the best implementations of the BASE system with Persistence. Puppy is an intentional copy of Knoppix (as did other distros too). BUT, Puppy sort reducing its ISO size because of issues we faced in both the use needs as well as the issues of the day; namely slow network connections (ie dialup modems), websites instabilities, and often corruptions of downloaded files. So a smaller package with smaller apps provided a level of operation that made it a popular choice.

Frugal is merely the word that its author chose to reflect a system that is a "Base+Persistence" distro.

Today there are 2 methods in this forum for a Frugal use:

• Copy the BASE contents from a PUP ISO/IMG file to a permanent location

• Run PUP/DOGs BASE, directly, from their ISO file

Each of these 2 methods provide exactly the same user experience. They get the user to the distro desktop, it afford operations of the subsystems and applications, and it allows saving of the desktop experience.

"Frugal", in the word's use, matches #2 at the start of this post.

If there is a better word, I am sure this community will listen.

[Berto]

Yes, thx to your both answers.

I know, but that's much work always .... I for myself prefer full install ....I don't have time and I don't like to play around with different features. Very most I like in puppies is it is small and working out of the box. Btw: I never managed to install knoppix .* Hahaha

I'm in Philippines, my laptop is getting very hot coz of high temperature here... 30 to 40 degrees the whole year. I must use an economizing OS.

But anyway, just wanted to express my opinion about always pointing to frugal ... It has it's place, but it's not all....

Regards
Berto

[mikewalsh]

@Berto :-

Nah. Don't think so. After nearly a decade with frugal Puppies, I'm afraid I find "full" installs to be slow, clumsy, and incredibly limiting & awkward to use.....but that's just my personal opinion. And it illustrates the beauty of the current Linux eco-system; there's something to suit all tastes, regardless of whether you prefer to stick with the 'traditional', or are one of those who enjoy experimenting.

We'll "agree to disagree" on this one!

Mike.

[p310don]

Frugal install isn't just about installing it without removing the original OS. That's just a benefit.

My case, format hard drive, install Puppy as frugal, get it set up, back up save file.

That is the number 1 best thing for me about Puppy. You make a working save file, then you do your worst and break things, and reload the save. Back to working in 60 seconds or less. With a full install, you break it, it's broken.

[mikewalsh]

@p310don :-

You've hit the nail on the head, Don. That's it, in a nutshell - for me, too.

I know I can play around with Puppy and try whatever I like, secure in the knowledge that a 'busted' Puppy will be working again within a matter of minutes. What's not to like..?

Mike.

[backi]

@Berto wrote:

So it is nice to have, but don't exaggerate this feature. In pure Linux systems it doesn't make much sense.

Frugal install Disadvantage........?????

What Disadvantage ???????

Frugal Install..........
Best Thing since sliced Bread!

B.t.W:
Good Explanation/Definition from @Clarity

[rockedge]

In pure Linux systems it doesn't make much sense.

Very true, that's why I never use "full" installs. And I've done 'computing' since punch cards.

I break operating systems on an hourly basis. So you don't have to. Now I think to myself......do I want to spend the rest of the day re-installing Windows or Ubuntu? Because I really need to repair and then blow this OS up much sooner than that!

No need to worry! I am using "frugal" designed systems and I'm back up in 5 minutes or as fast as the storage device can read and write.......and ready to DESTROY......all for the sake of computer science.

Oh and really to ruin it...I've been "WeeDogging" those big boys and girls Linux operating systems into full FRUGAL installations. Try it some time....it's awesome.

P.S. Have not WeeDogged Microsoft..........yet.

[JASpup]

@Berto you learn from observation almost all advanced Puppy users are using frugal installs, and if you don't have a lot of Puppy experience, you're lacking a basis for comparison.

There is one disadvantage tempting a full install: before you blow up your installation, configuration changes are directly saved and not cumbersome.

Q: Where is your os?

A: Read-only in ram.

Single-user desktop system. Huge security advantage.

[bigpup]

There is one disadvantage tempting a full install: before you blow up your installation, configuration changes are directly saved and not cumbersome.

Writting to the save can be controlled with a frugal install.

Run in pupmode 12.
Changes are directly saved.
As soon as there is a change, it is written to the save.

Running in pupmode 13.
Uses a save RAMdisk and the normal save file/folder.
Any changes are first written to the save RAMdisk, a temp location.
Writing to the save, can be controlled, as to when this happens or does not happen.
Update the save every so many minutes.
Update when you select to do it.
Never update the save.

[Berto]

Thanks to everyone for your replies, I didn't expect to get so much feedback.

I think you all got me a little wrong: I didn't mean mainstream Linux to fully install, I ment puppies, but especially EasyOS installed on a separate partition, or better 2 partitions.

Since two or three years I'm only using EasyOS as main OS, only very sometimes I need opensuse for newest stable software.

I just had the case somewhen, trying Sparky Linux, then installed Fossapup I think, on the same partition, later I was not contented with sparky and reformatted the partition: Puppy accidentally gone also. That's why I think, it must be on a separate partition, not inside another OS.

Regards
Berto

[p310don]

@Berto and that is exactly why frugal is great, if you're smart.

Set up your system the way you like and then back up your save file. Put it on a USB, or a CD/DVD, or another PC, or anywhere you like. Then, when you format a partition and accidentally delete your puppy install, you can recover it in minutes.

Just remember to do backups

[mikeslr]

Actually, there's another way you could have gotten rid of 'sparky' without having to re-install Fossapup. All Fossapup --any Puppy frugally installed-- only needs is its own folder. If Fossapup had been in its own folder, you could have booted into Fossapup, mounted the partition it was on and deleted everything other than that folder and such else as you may have wanted to keep*. Then edited your menu.lst/grub.cfg to remove the listing for sparky.
=-=-=-=-=-=--
* 1. Left-Click to mount the partition.
2. Click rox's Eye to 'Show hidden files'.
3. Left-Click an empty space to 'focus' rox on the mounted partition.
4. Ctl-a to select ALL files and folders
5. Ctl-Left-Click every file and folder you want to keep, i.e. de-select: e.g. Puppy's folder, SFSes, AppImages, folders containing portables and data.
6. Right-Click any of the files you DON'T want to keep and from the Pop-up Menu select "delete". All still selected files and folders will be deleted.
7. Edit your grub.cfg/menu.lst