Helping new users

[wizard]

@rockedge

Hi Rock,
There has been considerable discussion about getting more Puppy users . You know I have been a proponent of better "curb appeal" and improved help files to not only attract, but keeping more and younger users. The OP in this topic: https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=5074 highlighted a couple of up front stumbling blocks new users face. I think the forum and its members can address these as follows:

-System Requirements, although some distributions have this info, some do not. We can provide this, if
not specific at least a general guideline.

-Updating Browsers, same here, We can provide this, if not specific at least a general guideline.

Suggest adding one more:

-Puppy On Old Computers, general guidelines

I'd suggest putting these right at top of the board index in their own block. Maybe named
General Guidelines For New Users

I'll volunteer to create drafts if you think this would help. Bet we could get the mike's, big and
some others to help.

wizard

[mikewalsh]

@wizard :-

Well, you can put some drafts together by all means, but I can guarantee you they'll end up getting modified "by committee".....because everybody will have differing ideas as to what should be mentioned, what isn't necessary; what order to put things in, "such-and-such is more important than so-and-so".....that kinda thing.

They'll get chewed-over, gnawed on and worried half to death before they're considered "right" and fit to be finally polished-up and published!

Something along those proposed lines would NOT be a bad idea though. The forum membership's average age IS still steadily rising..... "New blood" never goes amiss.

Mike.

[rockedge]

Do we have stuff over in the oldforum or in the Wikkawiki already written for some of the subjects? We can organize in easy too find you can't miss it sections, to be determined, general specs and guides indexed.

The structure is easy, it's getting the content. I am all for pilfering existing documentation to get started. Once the ball is rolling, and the topics can be seen, the editing will go faster and smoother mostly because they will be editing on live, dynamic pages that already can be accessed world wide.

[wizard]

@mikewalsh
@rockedge

Mike is right, this could turn into some kind of debate where we beat it to death and nothing good happens. Let's have Rock be the gatekeeper/judge on what is enough. Rock, you could also pass this to someone of your choosing.

So, here are the choices:

1. Do nothing
2. Do something to help the users
3. Beat it to death till everyone thinks it's good, some time in the distant future

We have #1. Let's do the second choice.

It shouldn't be a complicated dissertation or try to cover every possible case and combination.

If you want to go bare minimum, just post the text that is in bold.

wizard

Suggest adding it in with Mainline Puppy Linux Distros block

************************DRAFT - General System Requirements*******************************
Puppy Linux has many versions, you can visit puppylinux.com, the official site, and find lots of information there. Also, check the Mainline Puppy Linux Distros and Puppy Derivatives topics in this forum.

For best results, it's important for you to match the Puppy version to your computers hardware capabilities.

Puppy's come in 32bit and 64bit (newer) versions. This refers to the CPU's ability. If you want to know more about this check here https://puppylinux.com/arch.html. Keep in mind that all the information there may not be updated, i.e., Puppy does now support UEFI booting.

General hardware system requirements are:
64bit Puppy's - CPU = 64 bit dual core, RAM = 2gb
32bit Puppy's - CPU = single core Pentium 4 or equiv, RAM=512mb

If you are unsure about your specifications try booting your system and entering the bios setup during boot. Your CPU and RAM information should be contained there. You can also try checking the internet for your make and model, which can give you a general idea.

Last, 64bit computers can run 32bit Puppys. You can download and run a 32bit Puppy and use that to determine the CPU and RAM.

There are many users running Puppy with less hardware than listed above, but they do so at the cost of performance and usability, particularly related to web browsers and internet access. This is a fact not only for Puppy Linux, but also for Microsoft Windows and Mac's. It is dictated by today's web standards.

Need more help? Join the forum and post your questions in Beginners Help.

[mikewalsh]

@wizard :-

Not bad for a first draft. I mean, let's face it; we don't need to go into a humungous amount of detail, do we? Just the basics, to give prospective users an idea of Puppy's reason for existing, what's on offer, & where the goalposts are. And as you say at the end, the follow-up is obviously to join-up & post questions if you need more help and/or advice.....

Yah. Looks okay to me, but we'd better wait & see what others have to say first. We'll get there eventually...

Mike.

[bigpup]

Not a bad idea, to have someplace, new users will find it, and hopefully, read it.

One suggested change to this:

General hardware system requirements are:
64bit Puppy's - CPU = 64 bit dual core, RAM = 2gb
32bit Puppy's - CPU = single core Pentium 4 or equiv, RAM=512mb

.
General minimum hardware system requirements are:
type computer = x86-32, x86-64, AMD64
32bit Puppy's - CPU = any 32 bit no older than a single core Pentium 4 or equiv, any 64 bit, RAM=512mb
64bit Puppy's - CPU = 64 bit dual core, RAM = 1gb

Reason for suggested changes:

1GB ram for 64bit.
It will work OK, as long as you only try to run one program at a time.

Type computer, so people know it is not for old mac computers that where not x86 or arm based computers.

any 64bit for 32bit Puppy's, because any 64bit CPU will run 32bit OS.

[keniv]

I hesitate to take part in this discussion as I think it as what I have to say may open a can of worms. I cannot describe myself as a "new user" but I can describe myself as just a user. I think if we want to help new user we should not leave them just to choose one of the very many pups that are available but instead I think there should be recommended 32bit and 64bit "starter" pups. These should be puppy versions that a new user is likely to find fairly intuitive to use and are likely to get to work straight out of the box in machines with the specs that have been described above. I expect there are as many opinions as to what these should be as there are members of this forum but I would suggest that the recommended starter 32bit pup could be Dpupstretch and the 64bit pup could be Fossapup. Next we need an easy way of booting the starter pup. I know there are some here that want the iso format to be retired. However, I remember when I started with puppy you downloaded an iso file and burned that to a cd/dvd. You could use any per-existing OS to do this. You could then boot from this and try the the OS from there. I know this ran at a reduced speed but you got a flavour of the OS and were offered the options of writing files from the iso to your hdd and include a savefile without affecting any per-existing OS on the hdd. You then had a working puppy which could be booted from your cd/dvd with out have to worry about the plethora of booting methods. Others might argue that there are better methods to boot the OS but for a new user this has to be as simple as possible and likely to bring instant success. Once new users have this initial success they could perhaps then look at other ways of booting or using the OS or even look at different pups. As a simple puppy user I find some modern pups much less intuitive and more difficult to use than others. Just my two pence worth.

Regards,

Ken.

[bigpup]

You bring up the one true problem with Puppy Linux.

There are so many versions.
None of them is designed to work on all possible computers.
So, it is hard to limit it to only two suggested versions.
But the two you suggest, is a good starting point.

The next big problem is installing to a USB stick drive.
There are a bunch of programs for installing operating systems to a USB drive.
Non of them, that will run in other operating systems, are designed for exactly the best install, for Puppy normal operation.
The installs they do will boot and run, but not partition and format the USB drive correctly, for normal Puppy operation.
Only the USB installers, that will use a fat32 format, come close to making a completely good, USB install of Puppy.
Here is info, on different USB installer programs, people may try to use:
viewtopic.php?t=157

If you want to install Puppy to a computer internal drive, alongside Windows. Be able to duel boot Puppy or Windows.
Lick installer easily does this.
Lick
https://github.com/noryb009/lick
Lick is a program that runs in Windows.

There are a couple of ways to run Puppy from the ISO by using a special boot loader setup.

Supergrub2
viewtopic.php?t=387
viewtopic.php?t=3716

Ventoy
viewtopic.php?p=38369#p38369
Note warning:
Ventoy sets up the partition for the ISO file storage exfat format. (most Puppy versions do not support exfat format)
Before putting any ISO on drive partition.
Reformat it to ext 3, or 4 format.

Burning a Puppy ISO image to a CD/DVD, in any operating system, is only done one way, and boots and works, only one way.
But CD/DVD drives are no longer on all computers.
With a Puppy CD/DVD booting the computer.
Installers in the booted Puppy version, will easily do any install, to any type drive, and know how to do it, correctly for Puppy.

[wizard]

@keniv
Thanks ken for you input, we need "just users" like you to help us pinpoint where improvements need to be made.

wizard

[keniv]

@bigpup

But CD/DVD drives are no longer on all computers.

I accept this but surely the "target" machines with the specs which have been outlined above are likely to have CD/DVD drives. I am typing this on one. Dual core with 4GB (I added 2GB). Machines like this I think are quite likely to have come with a pre-existing OS. This had Win8. Even if any pre-existing OS was unsafe to use the iso could be downloaded to a flash drive on another machine then transferred to the target machine.

Burning a Puppy ISO image to a CD/DVD, in any operating system, is only done one way, and boots and works, only one way.

If the "new user" is a new user to any linux OS then the above might be seen as an advantage.

Installers in the booted Puppy version, will easily do any install, to any type drive, and know how to do it, correctly for Puppy.

I accept this to a point but you've said it yourself, for at least some of these you need a booted puppy.
Your list of different installation methods kind of makes my earlier point i.e.

Next we need an easy way of booting the starter pup

As a user I am daunted by your list so I am assuming somebody new to linux would also be daunted. However I bow to your expertise. If any of these methods can do what the iso method can do including allowing the ability to have a "taster" of the OS before you install anything and would be easier for a true new user then I would say that would be the way to go.
@wizard
Thanks for the kind words. I have the feeling there were more "just users" in the old forum. I don't think all of them transferred to the new forum. I think thats why we don't hear much from them on these sorts of threads. I wish more would take part in such threads but I can understand why they don't. I think anything that makes life easier for new users or even users would be a good think and would improve the take up of puppy.

Regards,

Ken.

[mikewalsh]

Really & truly, bigpup has hit the nail on the head, as has Ken.

The ISO burnt to an optical disc method WAS as "foolproof" as it gets. BUT.....optical drives are rapidly going the way of the dodo. So, we need to concentrate on ways to install to a USB stick that are "foolproof", and will always work.

That, though, brings up the other problem. Any "foolproof" method for installing Puppy to a USB stick will have to be usable from Windows, since that is where most new users will be coming from. My recommendation for this would have to be UNetbootin; from experimentation, this always results in a workable Puppy.....in all respects.

What do others think? Anyone agree/disagree with this? Reasons (if you disagree)? UNetbootin is cross-platform in nature, and works equally well from either side of the fence.....

Mike.

[wizard]

I agree with all on the first boot issue, but we are drifting of topic. Let's put System requirements to bed, then start a new topic on first boot.

wizard

[wizard]

@bigpup

NOTE: This post has been transferred to "Getting Started and System Requirements" at the top of the forum.
Named: "General System Requirements "
You may still leave comments and suggestions here.

Agree on the 64bit 1gb. Loaded up a 1.6mhz dual core w/1gb ram and it was OK as long as you kept the number of tabs and processes under control like you said.

How about this for the final.
wizard

************************DRAFT2 - General System Requirements*******************************
Puppy Linux has many versions, you can visit puppylinux.com, the official site, and find lots of information there. Also, check the Mainline Puppy Linux Distros and Puppy Derivatives topics in this forum.

For best results, it's important for you to match the Puppy version to your computers hardware capabilities.

Puppy's come in 32bit and 64bit (newer) versions. This refers to the CPU's ability.

General hardware minimum system requirements are:
CPU Type = x86, x86_64, AMD64
32bit Puppy's - CPU = single core Pentium 4 or equiv, RAM = 512mb
64bit Puppy's - CPU = 64 bit dual core, RAM = 1gb

*NOTE - 64bit CPU's can run 32bit Puppy's, however, 64bit Puppy's have the best internet capabilities.

If you are unsure about your specifications try booting your system and entering the bios setup during boot (check the internet for how to do this or ask a computer friend to help). Your CPU and RAM information should be contained there. You can also try checking the internet for your make and model, which can give you a general idea.

Last, since 64bit computers can run 32bit Puppys, you can download and run a 32bit Puppy and use that to determine the CPU and RAM.

There are many users running Puppy with less hardware than listed above, but they do so at the cost of performance and usability, particularly related to web browsers and internet access. This is a fact not only for Puppy Linux, but also for Microsoft Windows and Mac's. It is dictated by today's web standards.

Need more help? Join the forum and post your questions in Beginners Help.

[keniv]

@wizard
A little thing really about the contents of the link https://puppylinux.com/arch.html you give in "DRAFT2 - General System Requirements". It contains code that presumably you would need to have a working linux OS in order to be able to run. I think a new user we be unlikely to already have a working linux OS.
@mikewalsh said in an earlier post.

Puppy to a USB stick will have to be usable from Windows, since that is where most new users will be coming from.

I think Mike is correct in this respect and I think coming from windows some potential new users would find this daunting not to say confusing.
I know this is a link to another site and therefore difficult to change but I do think it's worth trying to eliminate any possible areas of confusion to a minimum for new users. I think the rest of it is useful information and would be helpful in reducing confusion.
The only other thing that might be helpful is to have the puppylinux.com in "you can visit puppylinux.com" in the first line after the title as a link.
Hope this is of some help.

Regards,

Ken.

[wizard]

@keniv

Point taken, removed, thanks
wizard

[HerrBert]

I didn't dare to enter discussion here, but it feels like it's time to do so...

...
If you are unsure about your specifications try booting your system and entering the bios setup during boot. Your CPU and RAM information should be contained there. You can also try checking the internet for your make and model, which can give you a general idea.

Last, since 64bit computers can run 32bit Puppys, you can download and run a 32bit Puppy and use that to determine the CPU and RAM.
...

From my experiance i can tell that most Windows users do not even know how to enter the BIOS setup...
Also we need to provide more information about how to determine system information in Puppy Linux. We Puppy Linux users know about PSI (PupSysInfo), but a Windows user will most probably not!

[wizard]

@HerrBert

You're right HerrBert, I've added some text to mitigate that. Also, the next module looks like it will be "First Boot", on how to create bootable media to do a first boot. This module should link to that so a user can use Puppy to confirm their specs. In all honesty, if the user isn't able to determine their specs, they won't be able to create bootable media.

That mean there will be some users who will need additional assistance either from a friend and/or from this forum.

What we don't want to do is turn this into a computer knowledge and skills tutorial.

Thanks
wizard

[Clarity]

I am one who has always maintained a generalist approach to getting new users started on anything for the many years in the industry.

Writing MUST be clear and (especially in these modern times) include pictures, gifs, and videos wherever possible in today's documentation for MAXIMUM effectiveness and greatest user reach.

I agree with having a opening General User or New User preamble to be a 1st time steering wheel for the some of the many distros of this forum.

One of the largest dilemma I have witnessed in the years of this forum and PUP/DOGs, especially in the last few years is a combined effort of seasoned developers 'saying' they ONLY want PUPs for older PCs yet NOT expressing what "they" consider to be an older PC. So they talk in riddles as if things will surface magically with inexperienced users.

Aside from that being one of the several items (yes, there are more in my observations), I feel that @wizard appeal to the community of us is appropriate in seeking some way to become a steering wheel for those new to the forum. This must be ALSO considerate for those who get to this forum DIRECTLY from "Distrowatch" or from some word-of-mouth leading which lands them on a distro's page versus coming into the forum at its beginning where they would readily see the work that this thread will create.

We will need a way to 'alert' new users and inexperienced users to see the preamble we build.

So, going forward this should be in the back of our mind: Should this preamble be the 'index' forum page or should it be the 1st page of every new forum distro or only if/when they join the forum or ???

[Clarity]

Lastly, AND I KNOW that some of you will CRINGE at my saying this, BUT, as a 'general' user myself (probably a lot less than general) I should mention the very fact of something that seems to have gone missing in our CURRENT USER COMMUNITY: ALMOST everyone I have observed who have indicated the PCs they use...ALL...I repeat ALL are using PCs that have DVD players...EXCEPTING recent Chromebook owners who 'might' be seeking alternative boots to test on their platforms. So the efforts of some developers to ignore those users are NOT effective in getting those owners to ditch their current usable PCs in favor of buying new thin laptops. And we lead, as has been traditional, to bypass any use of their DVDs when it has been shown that DVD based PUPs work and work well.

Thus it will be several (maybe many) years before the community has PCs that do not have DVDs.

Lastly, in my statements that make some member's skin crawl: SG2D as well as Ventoy, as I have shown, means that any user, new or experience, will ONLY write a USB once in its lifetime that will serve for as many current PUP/DOGs as the forum currently has...on that very ONCE USB. The primary benefit to this is a sharp reduction of users USB creation and boot issues. In fact, it just may eliminate hassles that users have. This is NOT an introduction of ANY changes to any PUP/DOGs, yet it intents to make it simple for newbies to download and test with no disruption to their current systems until they are ready to do so. And, when they are ready, they merely write the save-session appropriately at shutdown. No user knowledge, no user distro changes, no USB issues, no PUP/DOG boot manager issues, simple understanding to use, etc.

Like all of you, I, too, want to make it all TOO EASY for new adventurers to come and have a greater successful start and attraction for building a greater Puppyland forum community by making it all too clear of what Puppy is about and all too easy to any PUPDOG's successful use & reuse.

I know that Puppy WAS designed initially for prior 2005, old, computers. But, today programs and advances are better than the offerings in 2005. IMHO, this community should NOT be afraid to indicate that 1GB for a x86 32bit PUP/DOG is considered a bare minimal in today's world for some good, yet minimal experience. And for X86_64, recommending a minimum of 2GB should be considered within reason. ALL browsers today, ever the minimal text versions are bigger than they were in 2005. We too, in guiding new users should move the needle to ensure a good starting experience for them. I do recognize that 99% of all users have 64bit PC, which since 2005 all come from manufacturers with 1GB. And most users have PCs that they will use in Puppyland with much more RAM than 1GB.

Just some thoughts. Hope there's some value found in them.

[wizard]

@rockedge

OK Rock, we've had 360 views and five contributors, let's take Draft2, above, as final and send to publication.

You might consider putting the link in it's own block since at least 3-4 more modules should be forthcoming. Not sure what you want to title it.

Thanks
wizard

[mikewalsh]

@wizard / @rockedge :-

@rockedge

OK Rock, we've had 360 views and five contributors, let's take Draft2, above, as final and send to publication.

You might consider putting the link in it's own block since at least 3-4 more modules should be forthcoming. Not sure what you want to title it.

Thanks
wizard

I've been thinking about the business of how to 'place' this section. I reckon the 'new-user' stuff should be in its own section, right at the very top of the 'front-page', even above the 'Mainline Puppy Linux Distros' section.....with sufficient separation between it and the start of the next section that there can be absolutely no doubt in anybody's mind what this section is about.....AND clearly marked as such.

I reckon it might get 'overlooked' in its current location in the same section as the 'Mainline Distros'. Does this make sense to anybody else.....or do I just have a strange way of looking at things?

Mike.

[keniv]

Yep, I think Mikes idea about where to place this section is a good one. I think it's important that it's prominent. I think it would also help to show how important the community thinks supporting new users is.

Regards,

Ken.

[Wiz57]

<exit lurking moderator mode>
Maybe make it a "sticky" as well? That way it is always visible.
<re-enter lurking moderator mode>

[mikewalsh]

@rockedge :-

Perfect, Erik. Perfect....

I think that should do it.

Mike.

[rockedge]

I think it's important that it's prominent.

Might be now

[keniv]

@rockedge
Yeah, exactly the right place. Also fits in very nicely with the way everything else is ordered.

Regards,

Ken.

[wizard]

@rockedge

We shall call you "Quickdraw".

Congratulation, all around.

wizard

[williwaw]

future edits to the locked threads in the new section should be suggested here?

Rock, a few weeks back you proposed a new wiki? Would not it be a good place for this?

(I cannot find your comments on the wiki status, as search has not been working here. It only shows results from the last few days)

[rockedge]

future edits to the locked threads in the new section should be suggested here?

Yes! For now this topic thread will be the place to draft additions to the Category and the locked topics.

As it goes we'll see how the forums get arranged in the category. I think we'll use the forum structure but lock the topics.

I am working on the Wiki on the side but may decide to begin to use the existing WikkaWiki software and just work on improving it's anti-spam abilities. That way we can start up logging in again and creating and editing documents.

[Clarity]

Would anyone here object to my offer of a draft to our current Draft 2? @rockedge or @wizard (its is not a re-write, mere cosmetics)?