Why do I care about getting that Sony working?

[GusCE6]

Given the fact that I do have a 2012 Windows 8/Puppy Linux 6/Puppy Linux 8 ASUS, quite powerful and able to recover from what happened the other day, one might wonder why I'm going through so much trouble for an antique laptop, the latest an effort to get Deviantart.com (thanks for nothing Wix- between you and the late Steve Jobs...) running properly.

But I also want to be able to do more. I want it to be able to do something with Twitch TV: being something of a realist there isn't any likelyhood of getting videos or streams with only the 720p or even 1080p options (sadly they are there) running, but maybe if a browser could do audio-only one could get "Twitch Radio-" so one can listen to a game being played. Youtube, now having a TERRIBLE site script design, handles things this way: newer browsers have the 240p option but older browsers on older devices (you know, the ones that need it) do not. As I said elsewhere: idiots.

These antics cause more waste and people who do not have much money to be out in the cold. I want to be able to actually accomplish something FOR REAL about it.

In the days of Flash-SWF people with older devices could play those games. Even the crummy little Windows CE 6 Sylvania netbook with Internet Explorer 6 and Flashlite was able to handle a number of them; the ancient Sony all of them. There is no question streaming in the time of Flash-FLV worked better, even on the mighty ASUS. But the late Steve Jobs, when he couldn't own it, waged war on it with the help of a worthless media, ruined it- the real motive was that Apple devices no longer supported Flash, and back in 2010 that meant you were missing out on a BIG part of the Internet experience. So- don't let Flash run on the devices, rather get rid of Flash.

Now poor people are out of luck. HTML5, aside from the problems of cross-compatability and browser updates causing potential failure, was unable to keep the promises made which is why you see WebGL and Unity. Problem is, unlike Flash which went by a universal standard, these do not work on older devices, so anyone unable to "upgrade" is just out of luck. Among my devices only the ASUS can handle them, and tests (including listening to the fan) show that WebGL takes much more power than Flash for an equivalent game- "Ion Drift Racer" (SWF) is every bit as impressive as "HexGL" (WebGL), but while the former runs nicely on the Sony only the ASUS can handle the latter.

As the Internet becomes more and more bloated and inefficient with poor design, needless script, ad-script, tracking script, and the like, older devices will be more and more left behind. Thus more toxic trash, more landfills (never mind "recycling," I've seen the Third-World landfills and worked in a recycling plant), more toxic mining...and of course if you are poor too bad. Virtue signalling aside. Note that I live in a very rundown area and am now sitting outside of a public library using its wifi. At night. With coyotes not far away. Across from a bar.

There it is. The reason I work with the Sony. While I've done well finding things and discovering a thing or two myself (e.g. URL-based answers for most Deviantart problems- most), I cannot alter or create apps, in this case the most important: browsers.

Mike Walsh explained why adapting Palemoon 27 with Palemoon 28 aspects isn't likely to work- sadly I knew this was likely but it was worth a try- my idea now is to:

1) Figure out a way to get Palemoon 28 SSE Linux running on that Sony with Puppy Linux 5.2.5 Lucid or a distro that requires about the same level of resources (256MB RAM and Pentium 3 800MHz processor; note that it MUST be Puppy Linux), or

2) Alter Palemoon 27 SSE Linux (portable) so whatever is keeping it from running properly 100% on sites like Deviantart is dealt with. I have narrowed the main problem to "static.parastorage.com." Note that the browser does run on that site, it just cannot do those four things.

3) The "Lite" Puppy Linux Precise does handle Palemoon 28 SSE Linux but still takes too much power. Lite is smaller and has less than regular, so it needs less power. If Precise is the minimum to get more recent browsers running I wonder: is it possible to make a version of Precise that is literally just enough to run the browsers and maybe an image viewer and a Notepad-type application? Absolute minimum, allowing installation of drivers for USB wifi stubs as well (in other words whatever you would need for the Internet)? Interesting idea...if it would work, that is. If such takes no more power than Lucid then it should work, better if less even.

With Deviantart URLs like "https://www.deviantart.com/?submit_modal=literature" get you to where you can submit literature; "https://www.deviantart.com/?submit_modal=journal" allows you to submit Journals. Sadly these do NOT work with older browsers. Modal issue?

Keep in mind that although it took a bit of dancing at times even the puny Sylvania netbook, using Opera Mini 5, was able to do everything. Now older browsers, including Palemoon 27, cannot Comment, Reply, Submit Journals and Literature. Images are not presented properly. Again, my URL techniques do allow other things to work, but those four are a large part of the experience.

Note to Mike Walsh: granted Opera Mini 5 is a proxy browser that filters out things, but it does not change the fact that not too long ago it enabled the Sylvania netbook- with its whopping 43MB RAM (no Virtual RAM or the equivalent)- to fully handle Deviantart. If it is possible to make a non-proxy browser capable of doing something like this yet also able to handle current sites that would be a HUGE boon. This would be a project that intrigues me, assuming I can even get started.

As you can see I can identify a problem, but usually have zero idea what to do about it beyond trying existing things. Right now the problem is that Palemoon 28 handles everything but does not run on the Sony while Palemoon 27 does run on the Sony but does not handle Deviantart properly.

All right- people here have modified and even created things (e.g. Palemoon 27 Linux SSE). Therefore it can be done.

Can anyone here tell me how to get started so I can start trying to do some of these things myself? Start at the VERY BEGINNING, do not assume I already know. It seems very difficult getting answers to this.

Clearly Puppy Linux is the best current answer to the problem of people stuck with older devices. Browsing is a key thing with computers, so browsers that enable old devices to still handle things will keep them useful. This is good both for poor people and the environment for real.

Any help? Who knows, "Twitch Radio," maybe deliberately skipping video frames, WebGL...maybe I can cook something up that will work. Oh, and when recommending a distro tell me how may TAB clicks before hitting ENTER must be done to get into XORG mode to change the screen resolution- I often get a black screen at first and must work blind.

Thanks!

Note: there were a number of things the Sony could not possibly do before but now can. It could NOT get online at this library, it could not even detect the wifi- but in Puppy Linux mode with the Panda wireless stub it can. It could not deal with WPA2 wifi but with Panda wireless it can. There were over twenty games it could not handle but thanks to 3D-Analyze and SwiftShader 2.0 & 2.1 it can. It could not handle SCUMMVM but thanks to SwiftShader it can. It could not play a number of games but thanks to Puppy Linux mode and WINE it can. It could not handle Deviantart in XP mode but thanks to the people at MSFN XP it can. It could not stream MP4 and so could not do other things but thanks to those modified browsers it can. Right here things that could not be done before- e.g. getting the SWF game "Norby" running or detecting SD cards in Tahrpup mode- have been made a reality. So- why not this? I just need help getting going on this. Trust me, once I catch on other things that couldn't be done may become possible. Hey, the worst that can happen is that I get nowhere.

[GusCE6]

Anyone?

[mikewalsh]

@GusCE6 :-

Did you try Fenyo's NewMoon 29 SSE-only builds.....the ones I turned into portables?

viewtopic.php?p=40180#p40180

----------------------------

The only other way I can think of that you could run a newer PaleMoon browser with Lucid is to run it in a chroot.....watchdog did it for Darry's Puppy 4.3.1 "Phoenix" remaster a couple of years ago. I believe he used Precise as the base for that one, but we were at or around PaleMoon 26 at the time; I doubt Precise would handle it now.

Regardless of the chroot 'base' in use, you're still going to have the same issues.....though in a different form. Running a chrooted item is rather like running a VM; you have to have enough RAM to run the "host" Puppy, the "chroot" Puppy AND the application in question. You're essentially running one Puppy inside another.

I don't think you'd have to actually 'install' the chroot Puppy + application (in this case, one of the NewMoon 29 SSE builds). I think I could possibly build one of the chroot Puppies I produced for Darry's 431 Phoenix ( those ran Iron 69, and were based around Tahrpup) in 'portable' format.....

Nah, hang about, hang about.....BUGGER. No; that wouldn't work, either. Hell. 'Cos the original issue is still there.....that darned P3. Not only is the host Puppy limited by it, the 'chroot' Puppy would be limited to one that would run on it, too. Ah, well; 'twas just a thought....

Mike.

[bigpup]

The "Lite" Puppy Linux Precise does handle Palemoon 28 SSE Linux but still takes too much power

By power, are you talking about amount of RAM used?
If yes.
You can use a command in the boot loader menu entry that will tell Precise Lite to boot and not load the main SFS's into memory.
Only the needed stuff to actually boot to a working desktop is loaded into memory.
It will take longer to start a program (it has to be read from the drive and loaded into memory), but after loading into memory it will run normally.
pfix=nocopy is the command that needs to be added to the boot menu entry Linux or kernel line.

This will lower the used amount of RAM by around 50% to get to a working desktop.

[GusCE6]

Yes, RAM is part of it, but so is processing speed.

There is a basic logic to what I'm trying to do here: if the BROWSING issues can be solved then for most devices...that's it overall.

Even that ancient Sony is perfectly capable of doing the following: handle documents, play audio (with visualizations no less), play video (up to 480p; if too much file converters solve this); art programs, etc. The only two issues are games and browsing.

Well, SCUMMVM, 3D-Analyze, and of course SwiftShader allow many more games to run on the Sony, and some on the somewhat superior Dell. Games are a serious weakness for EXE, WebGL, and Unity online (Unity games overall do not run on the Sony although the two "Running Sheep" games do), but ALL SWF, DOS, ColecoVision, 5200, Genesis, most JAR games do. But overall games will leave antique hardware behind...for now.

For browsing I see several options here:

1) Get Palemoon 28 and 29 (SSE Linux versions) working on Puppy Linux 5.2.5 Lucid,

2) Figure out why Palemoon 27 cannot handle sites like Deviantart.com fully, so alter it so it can,

3) Use a very lightweight distro able to handle those browsers,

4) If possible add RAM (which seems cheap) for a device which requires the 144 pin chips. Even a boost to 512 or in this case 640MB RAM would make a HUGE difference in how fast existing browsers would work since the SWP file would be used less. With WINE Windows browsers like Firefox 45 ESR SSE, Basilisk 52 SSE, and Palemoon 28 SSE do work, but are much, much too slow in Puppy Linux mode thanks to the ugly and moronic new site design Deviantart is using now. But with more than double the RAM maybe it would work better.

Now, if a browser which runs directly on Puppy Linux Lucid can handle such sites AND the RAM can be boosted there would be a HUGE difference, since the problem is being hit from both sides at once.

Mike, Fenyo, this is why I want to learn how to at least modify existing browsers. Once I know how they work, and since I have tracked down at least some of the problems (e.g. the modals involved with "Journals" and "Literature"), there's a good chance I can actually accomplish something. But I need someone to get me started here.

Thanks!

[amethyst]

Stick with the Precise option and try to get a somewhat later version of Palemoon going. I'm still using Palemoon 28.14.2. Sites like Youtube and Facebook are terribly resource hungry and you are bound to experience problems with your hardware. So to watch youtube, avoid the youtube site and try to watch the video via an embedded player on another site. I recommend watching it directly from the DuckDuckGO site (search for the video on DuckDuckGo and play it without leaving the DuckDuckGo site). If you can't get a video to stream at all, the best option will be to download it first. For youtube, ytmate.com, is a good online download site.
For general browsing (no media playing), I've been using Opera Mini (Java version) for years. Even with an old Pentium 1. Version 8 was the last. You need Java Runtime Environment (JRE) and an emulator like microemulator for Opera Mini to work. You can use an old version of JRE. Opera Mini will also work on a very old Puppy (I ran it on Puppy412 as far back as 2007).

[mikeslr]

1) Figure out a way to get Palemoon 28 SSE Linux running on that Sony with Puppy Linux 5.2.5 Lucid or a distro that requires about the same level of resources (256MB RAM and Pentium 3 800MHz processor; note that it MUST be Puppy Linux), or...

During this exploration "The Futility of Stripping -- BusterPup Stripped", viewtopic.php?p=4070#p4070 I created a strippped Busterpup which on an Asus 701SD --418 Mbs of RAM, 377 Mbs Swap partition-- ran Palemoon. It was the then standard Palemoon, portable IIRC, but know with certainty that it was not the Palemoon with included glibc-tweak as that wasn't necessary. Opening Palemoon used 177 Mbs of RAM (IIRC NO Swap used).

An ISO of that BusterPup is available. The above post provides a link. It won't be a speed-demon. But it might run with the capability of fully making use of the DeviantArt website even with the Sony's limited RAM.

Have you tried dpup-stretch? viewtopic.php?t=319 James Bond's report of it opening having used only 68 Mbs of RAM to boot to desktop was one of the factors inspiring me to undertake the exploration.
FWIW, both dpup-stretch and BusterPup can run the recent 'mozilla' browsers. However, while Seamonkey 2.46 required slightly less RAM (151 Mbs) than Palemoon it may not be acceptable to DeviantArt; and (untested) the latest Seamonkey is likely to require more. From experience, firefox requires at least 100 Mbs more RAM than Palemoon just to open.

[GusCE6]

I wish someone here would tell me how to modify existing browsers that run on Puppy Linux. I would try to get Palemoon 27 able to handle Deviantart, as far as I can tell the main problem is "modal" ability. This is why it cannot post Comments, Replies, Journals, or Literature.

What is wrong with site programmers? Are they trying to ruin the Internet, especially for poor people?

I posted a request on the Opera site for them to update Opera Mini. You can run it with Microemulator 2.0 in Puppy Linux mode and KEmulator Lite in Windows mode. It would be sandboxed so only basic browsing is possible but it would work and it would make any device completely safe.

[amethyst]

I wish someone here would tell me how to modify existing browsers that run on Puppy Linux. I would try to get Palemoon 27 able to handle Deviantart, as far as I can tell the main problem is "modal" ability. This is why it cannot post Comments, Replies, Journals, or Literature.

What is wrong with site programmers? Are they trying to ruin the Internet, especially for poor people?

I posted a request on the Opera site for them to update Opera Mini. You can run it with Microemulator 2.0 in Puppy Linux mode and KEmulator Lite in Windows mode. It would be sandboxed so only basic browsing is possible but it would work and it would make any device completely safe.

You can't modify existing browsers, you need to use a later version. Palemoon 27 is too old for newer sites. They stopped development of the java version of opera mini a few years ago so no new updates. Still works okay for me. You need JRE for the java version and microemulator works well.

[GusCE6]

I wish someone here would tell me how to modify existing browsers that run on Puppy Linux. I would try to get Palemoon 27 able to handle Deviantart, as far as I can tell the main problem is "modal" ability. This is why it cannot post Comments, Replies, Journals, or Literature.

What is wrong with site programmers? Are they trying to ruin the Internet, especially for poor people?

I posted a request on the Opera site for them to update Opera Mini. You can run it with Microemulator 2.0 in Puppy Linux mode and KEmulator Lite in Windows mode. It would be sandboxed so only basic browsing is possible but it would work and it would make any device completely safe.

You can't modify existing browsers, you need to use a later version. Palemoon 27 is too old for newer sites. They stopped development of the java version of opera mini a few years ago so no new updates. Still works okay for me. You need JRE for the java version and microemulator works well.

Well, they seem to be doing that at the MSFN site. This is why in XP mode that Sony can handle Deviantart, albeit somewhat slowly. Therefore it is possible to modify such browsers, I just need to get started and don't know how.

Yes, I use Microemulator 2.0 and a JRE SFS file. It and numerous games work nicely!

[mikewalsh]

@GusCE6 :-

I wish someone here would tell me how to modify existing browsers that run on Puppy Linux.

Heh. Y'know, probably no more than perhaps 10,000 individuals world-wide will have any concept of just how incredibly complex the code-base of a modern browser truly is. It's not something the average user can just dive-into and start modifying. Not without a thorough grounding in C++, JavaScript, Rust, Ruby, Perl, and any number of other scripting/programming languages.

In all truth, a lightweight, basic operating system, with just a modern browser plus the dependencies required for it to run can do absolutely everything the average user can need on a day-to-day basis (this is the basic concept behind the Chromebook machines). In addition to its primary function of visiting/accessing websites & their content, you can use it to browse your file-system. As an 'extension' of that, you can view videos (with yr browser's internal video-player), or edit them with on-line video editors; read & modify PDFs (with yr browser's built-in PDF viewer, or with any number of on-line options/extensions); read & edit documents; view all kinds of images; stream from any number of streaming web-sites; video-call & chat with friends/family/colleagues.....etc, etc.

And you think you can just blithely skip through that complexity and apply the odd 'tweak' here & there to suit yourself? In the words of the philosopher, it's unfortunately a case of "Dream on". True, we have some pretty advanced & knowledgeable coders here on the Puppy Forum, but this kind of thing is way beyond even their capabilities.

The advice generally given will be the same wherever you go; download the browser source-code; teach yourself how to program; teach yourself how to compile; run the necessary software to do the actual compiling, cross yr fingers, and.....hope for the best. I believe one of our members, snoring_cat, did in fact compile a browser himself after applying some tweaks, but even this was only with Dillo, one of the smallest/lightest & simplest browsers you can possibly obtain anywhere.....and it can't handle the kinds of sites you want to visit.

On top of all that, you're going to need a pretty powerful machine to compile something as major as a browser.

Believe me, I understand and fully sympathise with your frustration over the way the modern web is going, but it's a rat-race between hardware vendors & software developers. Every time hardware manufacturers come up with new tech to extend the abilities of the average user's machine, the software developers turn round and immediately re-code their wares to require usage of those capabilities in full. Yah, it makes for an increasingly better experience for the user, but it also requires the use of increasingly more powerful & more expensive hardware. And as you know only too well, it leaves those who only have access to elderly tech out in the cold.

--------------------------------------------

When I upgraded to this modern HP Pavilion midi-tower 2 years ago, after my 16-yr old, hand-me-down Compaq Presario tower finally expired, the first thing I did was to address the mediocre 4 GB of RAM it came with. The 3GB DDR1 the Compaq had was incredibly limiting; I never wanted to be in that situation again. So with the aid of a couple of extremely good deals I found on-line, and further aided by spending very little during the pandemic with all the lock-downs, etc, it's now maxed-out at 32 GB. Likewise, storage is now somewhere around the 6 TB mark. AND for the first time ever, I have a discrete GPU, which helps to keep as much as possible of that RAM exclusively for Puppy's use.

To me, this machine was supposed to be the ultimate. However, it's rapidly becoming clear that even 32GB of RAM is only considered 'average' nowadays, with the next-generation of motherboards supporting up to a absolutely whopping 256 GB of RAM. I'm just lucky in that Puppy does everything I want or need, and uses very little in the process.

None of which helps your issue, of course. But even much further up the ladder, we still have limitations.

Mike.

[GusCE6]

Well, I know it won't be a day in the park because of the yahoos who keep messing up the Internet with ridiculous script...

But I do have a way of catching on once I get started (the tough part). Some years ago I couldn't even put a JPG image on a webpage- then a friend was thinking of getting an online comic going so I tried learning site design.

Several months later I was also programming 2-d Mahjong games for the site as well.

This ASUS has more than enough power to work on it.

What's the worse that can happen? If I fail then nothing lost, if I succeed then who knows? But I need a dope's guide to getting started first.

[GusCE6]

Oh, by the by- which is the earliest distro able to get Palemoon 28 SSE Linux running? Slacko 5.4 has been a letdown I'm afraid.

It's just that here and at MSFN people are so helpful and you really get great things from these sites. If this can be done anywhere it is here. Look over my posts and see what's been accomplished already.