making a puplet : remaster, full installation, WOOF, documentation questions

[ChrisFH]

Hi. I am runnning an old Dell Inspiron laptop, currently with Lubuntu. I made a LiveUSB of the latest FossaPup using an ISO. I have booted it successfully, and now I would like to install.

I have read about Frugal vs Full installations, but I am not sure what the advantage of a Full Installation is. (Note: I see that documentation says a Full Installation is made to the computer's HDD, but I think a normal Full Installation can be made to a USB stick as well, right? If not, maybe that would explain an important reason for the Full Installation option to exist...?) At first, I assumed that the Full Installation would be necessary to make any persistent modifications to the system, but on further reading, it looks like persistent modifications can be made to a Frugal install as well.

I want to start using FossaPup booted from a USB, but in the mid-to-long-term, my goal is to keep modifying FossaPup to make what I guess you call a "puplet". If that is my goal, should I make a normal Full Installation to a USB stick rather than a Frugal install to a USB stick?

Also, basically I'm a zero on WOOF and how the "you must use WOOF" standard relates to persistent modifications. Can I literally not create a puplet without WOOF, or just not create something officially recognized as "a puplet" without WOOF, or is WOOF unnecessary as long as I stay inside the Ubuntu/FossaPup world, or is it more complicated (like some modifications can be made without WOOF, but some modifications cannot be made without WOOF)?

About documentation: if every change I make is oriented toward creating a puplet, is there some standard way I should document persistent modifications I save? Or, is there some program that can compare a puplet to its originating Puppy distro and list out the modifications?

Thanks for taking the time to read all my questions. I look forward to asking more in the future and then maybe getting to the point of answering other beginners' questions.

[Wiz57]

Hello Chris, and welcome!
I'll give a few quick answers, and others will probably flesh it out better. The terms full and frugal
installation refer to the way Puppy files are stored on the media you install to, be that hard disk, SSD,
USB thumb drive etc. Full means in non-compressed format, frugal means it is stored in compressed
format. Frugal install is the preferred method since it allows more flexibility especially in regards to
using SFS application files. You still have the complete Puppy, but it is compressed to make better
use of the storage media.
"Persistence" in Puppy is achieved via savefile or savefolder. Savefiles are the initial method and can
be used on almost any type of file system (EXT2, NTFS, FAT, etc) After you install your Puppy, make your
changes, customizations, etc., upon Logoff/Shutdown, you are prompted if you want to create a savefile,
follow those prompts, I recommend starting with 512MB or 1GB size...you can always make the savefile
larger, but there is currently no method to make them smaller! If a user desires to use a savefolder,
then Puppy must be stored on a Linux native filesystem such as EXT2, EXT3. Savefolders behave a bit
differently than savefiles in that they only use the amount of space required at the time of saving, kind
of dynamic sizing if you will. Savefiles stay the same size regardless how much data is saved. Others
can jump in here as I have no experience with savefolders.
As for making puplets, there are internal "remaster" applications that can be used to make a personalized
Puppy, and there are a few additional remaster applications available from members here at the forums.
Remastering from what I understand doesn't require use of Woof CE, and the applications create a new
ISO file based upon the Puppy you are running. With remastering, you can remove built in applications
that you don't use such as web browsers, office/word processor, etc. Use caution removing Puppy specific
applications though, some are needed by other applications.
Hopefully I've highlighted the answers to some of your queries, and others can fill in missing details!
See you on the forum!
Wiz

[bigpup]

Always make a frugal install to any drive.
Puppy is designed for that type install and some features, will not work, using any other type install.
A live install to a USB or CD, is the same as a frugal install, but does not have the Puppy files in a directory (folder), like a frugal install.
They are all just on the drive.
Everything loads into RAM except what is in the save.

Full install is from the very old days of Puppy when computers had very low levels of RAM.
Uses the smallest amount of RAM to get to working desktop.
No one is keeping up with making sure everything still works in a full install.
Everything in Puppy is developed for a frugal or live install.
Really it is time to stop offering that type install.

In a frugal install, everything different is stored in the save file/folder. Added programs, settings, etc.....

If you get a Puppy version install setup the way you want it, with all changes and added software.
Remaster is the way to turn that into a new ISO of it.
It would be your Puppy derivative version ISO. A completely new ISO.
Most Puppies already have the remaster program, to use to make a remaster.
No one says you need to do this, only if you want to.

The easy thing to do is make a backup copy of the save file/folder, for the Puppy version installed, you are using.
Want to install to another computer, and have the same setup.
Use the original Puppy version ISO. Do a frugal install and add the backup save to it.
When it boots using this save, it will have everything already in it, as your other install.
Computer having different hardware, may require redoing settings for them.

Woof-CE is how you build a complete new version of Puppy, from scratch.
You start from beginning and build it.
If you really want info on using Woof-CE
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE

[bigpup]

As you can see.
Asking more than one question, in a topic (post), makes it messy, and hard to follow.

It is much better, to only ask one question or issue, in a post you make.

No limit on number of posts you can make.

[mikeslr]

Let's make your life easier. You're just beginning with Puppy Linux; maybe any Linux. Woof is an application that enables the creation of Puppys almost 'from scratch'. You wouldn't have to compile the 'nuts & bolts' and the pieces they hold together: but you do have to know how Puppys use them and decide which to use. So, unless you are willing to put in the time to fully understand how Puppys can work; the alternatives; and how to work with the not-intuitive Woof application, cross mastering Woof off your high-priority list.
bigpup has provided an overview of the differences between Full and Frugal Installs; a Live install merely being a Frugal install to a USB-Stick. Take a look at the graphic on this post: viewtopic.php?p=41084#p41084. Each of the files ending with ".sfs" is a file-system. sfs is an acronym for 'squashed file system'. Squashed means compressed. Each can hold thousands of files. On boot-up, without decompressing those SFSes, a frugal puppy copies those files into RAM where they are cached*. A 'Full Install' decompresses those files and writes them to a Linux Formatted partition only on your hard-drive.
Not only do 'Full Installs' lack some of the capabilities of a Frugal install, they are almost impossible to fix if you screw up. So for now, forget about Full Installs.

The purpose of Remastering is take an already existent Puppy, modify the suite of applications that are to be immediately available, and package that product so that it can be distributed and almost immediately provide an alternate operating system for a computer. If all the foregoing are not your objectives, then you really don’t need to a Full remaster. It is likely that your objectives is simpler, and more easily accomplished.
REMASTERING is primarily concerned with altering the contents of the puppy_version_number.sfs: removing, updating and/or adding to them. In the above referred to graphic, the file named puppy_bionicpup64_8.0.sfs is that Puppy's puppy_version_number.sfs. Fossapup64's is named puppy_fossapup64_9.5.sfs.
There is a much better tool for remastering than the 'built-in': It's named nicOS-Auto-Base-Remaster. You can download the package from here, viewtopic.php?p=12983#p12983 and unzip it: Right-Click and select UExtract. Also Right-Click the file in the extraction folder and select Properties. Make sure there's a check-mark in each of the boxes under "Exec". But don't left-click it yet. Move it to /root/my-applications/bin: Left-press, drag, select move. After you create a SaveFile/Folder it will be there waiting to be run by Left-Clicking.

On your first shut-down/Reboot you'll be asked if your want to create a Save. A
Save will hold your settings, customization and the applications you install. Menu>Setup>Puppy Package Manager can be used to both install and uninstall. It can also uninstall any pet or deb you download and install by Left-Clicking. [Fossapup64 can make use of many applications packed as an SFS, an AppImage or a portable which don’t have to be installed; and don’t have to be included in a Remaster].

What a Remaster does is combine the contents of the puppy_version_number.sfs with those in your Save, assigning the contents of the Save priority if there’s a conflict. Of all the Remaster applications of which I am aware, nicOS-Auto-Base-Remaster is the only one which doesn't require that you copy the setting and configuration files from current system to the folder being used in building the Remaster, and know which files to copy. The resulting Remaster may not have the correct settings for a different computer: but it won’t be any worse than the default setting would have been.

nicOS-Auto-Base-Remaster does not create a new ISO. But once you’ve substituted your new puppy_fossapup64_9.5.sfs for the original you can use the nicOS-Remaster-Alternative to quickly produce a ‘Full’ remaster packaged as an ISO. [Used on its own, that application does require you to copy setting and configuration files to the ‘Work Folder’]. I don’t know if the ISO it creates will have boot-system files satisfactory for UEFI computers. The built-in remaster application doesn’t.
Creating a package which includes files necessary to create a boot-loader are only needed for computers which don’t already have a boot-loader capable of booting Puppys. A Puppy’s system files can be just copied, or packaged and the package copied, if the computer already has the capability of booting Puppys.
Don’t be too quick to remaster. Get to know your Puppy, its capabilities, available applications and tools Puppys have for creating customizations other than remastering. To paraphrase a passage from Robert Ruark's Uhuru:
Be certain that you have something better before you replace a system.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-
* Puppys are very efficient about caching. For example, viewtopic.php?t=692&sid=7b2ae880552d2cc ... 3aad9ba63f. My estimation is that a file it caches requires about 1/5 the space in cache in RAM that was required by the file on storage leaving the rest of RAM for actual use. Files are swapped in and out of 'cache' as needed; and that swap is, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous.

[dimkr]

It's easy to use woof-CE, if you have basic knowledge of using git and GitHub.

https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/w ... -on-GitHub

You need to fork https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE, modify configuration files (for example, if you're developing a Slacko derivative, modify files under woof-distro/slackware), then let GitHub Actions run woof-CE for you.

[ChrisFH]

Wiz57, bigpup, mikeslr, dimkr:

Thank you all for your replies!
I feel I am getting a big picture handle on things (even though my attempts to actually install Puppy haven't worked yet!)
You-all have given good information. I feel like a lot of it could be documented on the website and save you guys the trouble of writing it out. For example, I looked through the Wikka info prior to posting, but bigpup's comments about the Full Normal Install being outdated would have clarified a lot if I had read that in the Wikka first.

With remastering, you can remove built in applications that you don't use such as web browsers, office/word processor, etc.

Thanks. I was wondering about this. I haven't gotten my installation to work yet, but once I do, I will try to see what I can remove.

Many things clarified, thanks.

Lots of good information, thanks.

It's easy to use woof-CE, if you have basic knowledge of using git and GitHub.

At this point, it sounds like I really don't need Woof-CE. Maybe in the future.

Thanks to all!

[Wiz57]

You're welcome! Next step will be deciding which Puppy you want to try. This will depend upon the
hardware you are using...CPU, RAM etc. The capabilities of your computer may play a large role in
which Puppy will work better for you. I'm partial to Slackware derived Pups myself, but others report
great results with Ubuntu and Debian based Pups. So, for help with recommendations, list your PCs
stats, especially CPU architecture and RAM amount.
See you on the Forum!
Wiz

[ChrisFH]

You're welcome! Next step will be deciding which Puppy you want to try. This will depend upon the
hardware you are using...CPU, RAM etc. The capabilities of your computer may play a large role in
which Puppy will work better for you. I'm partial to Slackware derived Pups myself, but others report
great results with Ubuntu and Debian based Pups. So, for help with recommendations, list your PCs
stats, especially CPU architecture and RAM amount.
See you on the Forum!
Wiz

I've been inside the Debian/Ubuntu fold since I started using Linux over a decade ago, so I am focused on FossaPup right now. After I get more used to FossaPup, maybe I'll see if the other Puppies are better for me.

This will depend upon the
hardware you are using...CPU, RAM etc. The capabilities of your computer may play a large role in
which Puppy will work better for you.

Right now, because of several lifestyle-related factors, I am thinking of using Puppy as a portable OS that can be used on friends' or work computers. Right now, don't know what that might mean in choosing a Puppy.

[mikeslr]

Fossapup64 is a great puppy. The only question I have for your intended use --located on a USB-Key to be run on a variety of computers-- is whether its components may be too new and demanding for some of those computers.

Remember that Puppys don't need their own partitions. Each will happily boot from just a folder/directory. You should also known that many SFSes, AppImages, and portables --all of which you don't install-- can be used by several Puppys. So the 'storage' demands of any Puppy is less than 1 Gbs, exclusive of things you Save to its SaveFile/folder and the portables, appimages, and SFSes.
If you remaster, you don't want to limit drivers to that of the computer you're doing the remaster on.

It's unlikely that any of those computers won't be able to use 64-bit operating systems. Still, it won't hurt to have at least one 32-bit OS [plus any 'external' applications for it as it can't use 64-bit applications].
If you are going to have to transfer data to Window operating systems, I won't hurt to have 3 partitions on the USB-Key: boot and 'transfer' formatted Fat32; the 3rd partition being Linux formatted to hold the puppy(s), external applications and a 'general storage folder with sub-folders' to be used by all Puppys. By default, Windows can NOT read Linux formatted partitions, and finding one stops looking.

Suggestions for the other Puppys. Best to know what applications you will use. And best to start another thread: Forum's 'rule of thumb' being 'One thread, one topic'.