Help Puppy Linux get a higher hit count on Distrowatch

[JASpup]

There is LXDE for Slacko7 as ydrv.sfs module.

It could be added to CD iso in the same way as i added it to my HD syslinux boot menu.

Someone could make other DE as sfs modules.

This is already done 32-bit. Outside the box, consider he might mean growing the Puppy userbase and appealing to non-technical users and the existing competition.

[JASpup]

I dont know if you will find this helpful, but when I started down the rabbit hole couple weeks ago, along the way I found this video. It is easy to understand and I feel was a big help in the relationship of these current audio advancements.

I recommend this for anyone who wants to "place" the audio (and now video) direction of Linux.

I watched almost half - knowledgeable with clear language, but it's too densely packed and would be better separated into multiple chapter videos.

[Grey]

Fossapup, for example, is already "adapted" to xfce.
a. Install from PPM xfce4_4.14 (meta-package).
b. The WM switcher item appears in Menu>>Desktop:

wm_switcher.gif (13.65 KiB) Viewed 779 times

c. Install all sorts of plugins and programs (Mousepad, Terminal) for xfce from PPM, if desired.

Of course, the question remains open whether all of the above is easy for the user.

[JASpup]

Of course, the question remains open whether all of the above is easy for the user.

That is the only question.

Again, installing XFCE from the PPM isn't a puplet. You can get it to work but full functionality and customization is for developers.

I know from trying:


Tahr XFCE from the PPM about 13 months ago

That Mainline PUPSAVE still exists, but today I only use X-Tahr.

[JASpup]

Imagine giving your non-technical friend two computers: one a Puppy install and one a Linux Mint XFCE install. Which one do you think they would happily use? Of course, when they are trying Puppy and wanting some special facility working, you will tell them to visit this forum to seek technical answers (often involving commandline wizard fixes) - come on - no chance!

Right. Then someone will show up who prefers Puppy 'guts' but wants more Mint friendliness and gui refinement, and he'll be the one who keeps posting about X-Tahr.

[Grey]

Use a "highly polished" system... it's so boring

Who else is able to remember, then remember what kind of romance there was once - six months to think about how to set up the menu (or whatever you have there) and then what pleasure came. Although it happens to me even now

Just like with Space. The romance of discovery is already turning into low-orbit tourism.

What am I talking about? To get to the top of the rating... we need to become those "space tourists"

[JASpup]

@Grey it's a philosophy. You might be a more of a bleeding-edge science guy who can suffer instability and rough edges.

I'm more of an anti-corporate hegemony guy who thinks more technical distributions are more appropriate for your mission.

The traditional Puppy desktop icon layout, for example, isn't for scientists. That's in the JWM menus.

So seriously, is this a warm fuzzy Puppy for web browsing and mtpaint, or are we calculating projectile trajectories?

What would make me happy: Linux a greater portion of the pc os base (currently < 2%), and whatever distro I use near the top for community support.

That is the only way to counter hegemony without deep pocket$.

Google putting out the lowest prices laptop Chromebooks is akin to the same strategy Apple used in the 80s for schools - they discounted the Apple so they became common. After Android on everyone's phone, people will be using more Chrome OS. Getting those machines to dual boot or replace Chrome OS with a user-friendly low footprint Linux alternative is a coup: viewtopic.php?t=431

[hundido]

https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=popularity
[/quote]

Are the contests designed to encourage daily entries designed that way to create a daily habit?

Anyways, thank you for time is better spent learning interesting, useful things than thinking of rankings as a form of marketing unto themselves.

[Grey]

What would make me happy: Linux a greater portion of the pc os base (currently < 2%), and whatever distro I use near the top for community support.

A friend of mine said 5 years ago that "soon" Windows will lose, and Linux will win and will be installed on all computers. And it will be Ubuntu. However, Ubuntu is now in sixth place in the ranking and is losing popularity. It is not always possible to guess the future

[mistfire]

pulseaudio instead of ALSA?

It depends on the situation. IMHO I noticed that most recent applications depend on pulseaudio. So it seems inevitable.

More eye candy (bloat)?

More like more user-friendly. Sadly IMHO Puppy was good for a user with basic linux background not for Linux newbies and Windows refugees. Because of unique DE, incompatible hotkey, single click navigation and unique file management offered by ROX Filer. Unlike XFCE, LXDE, MATE, GNOME and KDE where their DE, file management, and hotkeys was almost the same as MS Windows so the transition to linux was easier. Providing official Puppy with alternative DE will do the trick. However the Puppy core base was it seems tightly integrated with JWM and ROX. It must be decoupled and became DE agnostic (in my perspective).

[mistfire]

I think the problem is not the number or variety of improvements that go into Puppy or woof-CE, but the lack focus and organization.

You have the point. As of these 2020's decade arrived. Puppy must moved focus on PC support starting from 2000's to 2010's models onward.

PPM is horrible, and it's been this way in every Puppy release for years.

As frontend for installing packages from the repo YES its horrible. But the installation and removal of packages, NO because the PPM package installation and removal was greatly improved since 2019.

bad Bluetooth support

Because bluetooth management app was bloated, written python and also because of PulseAudio. Old gnome-bluetooth was good however it only supports Bluez4

In addition, Puppy's development is super messy

You're right also it seems lacks of leadership and organization. It seems there is no hierarchy of developers for reviewing pull request.

[BologneChe]

Turn your laptop screen down ... rank will improve!

[dimkr]

You have the point. As of these 2020's decade arrived. Puppy must moved focus on PC support starting from 2000's to 2010's models onward.

I think Puppy needs to re-focus, because the "old" vs "new" dichotomy is becoming irrelevant. Instead of emphasizing small size and resource consumption at all costs, I think the focus should change to responsiveness, better out-of-the-box usability and lower resource consumption compared to other distros with similar functionality.

PCs haven't changed that much in the last decade. Many computers from 10 years ago already had respectable amounts of RAM (>= 4 GB), and sometimes it's OK not to use a super lightweight but inadequate application instead of the mainstream application in the category. Most 2010 computers can run the latest Firefox/Chrome with PulseAudio and Blueman just fine. And Puppy's network wizards can be replaced with a heavier but friendlier solution like ConnMan or NetworkManager, which works much better, because most Puppy users have enough RAM for that. And the huge VA-API drivers, that make Puppy bigger, greatly reduce CPU consumption because they allow browsers to use the GPU to decode video. Is it worth it? Probably yes, because extra storage is cheap and easy to add, and most people can afford a small increase in Puppy's size, while the CPU is pretty much impossible to upgrade, and CPU consumption/battery life is much lower in other distros because they do have these drivers. Sometimes, smaller is slower, and bigger is faster.

Even computers with 2 GB of RAM (>= 2005?) can be usable and snappy, especially with zram (https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/1954) and the "RAM Saver" (https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/2435) added to woof-CE recently.

Also, zstd compression for Squashfs images makes Puppy much more responsive, at the cost of 8-15% increase in size. Is it worth it? Probably yes, because most computers that run Puppy have that extra space, and the huge improvement in responsiveness is worth it.

As frontend for installing packages from the repo YES its horrible. But the installation and removal of packages, NO because the PPM package installation and removal was greatly improved since 2019.

PPM is horrible, not just its UI. It's super slow, its dependency resolution misses dependencies sometimes ... there's a long list of issues with it. We just don't track these issues in a bug tracker like GitHub's issues page.

Because bluetooth management app was bloated, written python and also because of PulseAudio. Old gnome-bluetooth was good however it only supports Bluez4

I think Blueman > janky_bt. Bluetooth audio is so common nowadays, and it must work well, otherwise many people can't use Puppy. A heavy solution that satisfies all requirements > a partial, lightweight solution > no solution at all.

You're right also it seems lacks of leadership and organization. It seems there is no hierarchy of developers for reviewing pull request.

Some organizations do just fine as 'flat' organizations. But IMHO, a project like Puppy does need a BDFL with exclusive rights to merge stuff.

[JASpup]

A friend of mine said 5 years ago that "soon" Windows will lose, and Linux will win and will be installed on all computers. And it will be Ubuntu. However, Ubuntu is now in sixth place in the ranking and is losing popularity. It is not always possible to guess the future

I agree. Your friend had positive faith but not accurate.

Further the question of how? the likes of Manjaro and MX have overtaken Ubuntu is not a technical question. Remove economic incentives and it persists.

I chose Mint first for its updating philosophy, but I still do not see a compelling reason for it. It is too similar and generally compatible with Ubuntu.

Similarly there is a discrepancy between what Puppy is and what an individual user wants it to be.

[bigpup]

Similarly there is a discrepancy between what Puppy is and what an individual user wants it to be.

People want the operating systems, to all work the same way, so they do not have to learn, a different way, to do things.

[JASpup]

Anyways, thank you for time is better spent learning interesting, useful things than thinking of rankings as a form of marketing unto themselves.

They're both relevant. Distros are intrinsically competitive whether we want them to be or not, and they're all competiting with Windows and MacOS.

The only time they are not competiting is when they cannot be substituted. E.g., I am not going to be using Windows 11 on my phone.

So the big question becomes: When does it make more sense to compete, and when to cooperate?

Then when competition is the stance, what are the means?

Further there are two considerations: What are any individual's means to contribute? And as dimkr stated earlier in this thread: How will productive energy be focused and organized?

There is more than Western bribery and coercion and Eastern tyranny.

[Grey]

and they're all competiting with Windows and MacOS.

Windows does not compete with Linux, it competes with itself , the current version is against the previous ones. And Linux is trying to compete with itself through the number of distros.

Another thing is that now it is difficult to come up with something new. Usually done according to the scheme "add different ready-made components and get a new distro." As a result, one is similar to the other.

In principle, now even television is the same everywhere. For example, an evening show is shown in Russia, which is clearly a copy of The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. Everything is copied: the scenery, the style, the general meaning, the band. Only Desktop Environment the host and invited guests are different:

Jimmy Fallon and Ivan Urgant.jpg (75.12 KiB) Viewed 827 times

[JASpup]

Windows does not compete with Linux, it competes with itself , the current version is against the previous ones.

You can look at it that way, or my way. Your way, the basis is that Linux is not strong enough and planned obsolescence is not exacting. My way, the basis is if neither of those existed, we'd all be using Macs.

And Linux is trying to compete with itself through the number of distros.

That is o-kay until there's a clear winner with a dominant advantage.

Another thing is that now it is difficult to come up with something new. Usually done according to the scheme "add different ready-made components and get a new distro." As a result, one is similar to the other.

Where is the lightweight user-friendly Linux distro that runs all in ram with a popular theme?

I'll call it Almost Puppy (user-friendly).

In principle, now even television is the same everywhere. For example, an evening show is shown in Russia, which is clearly a copy of The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. Everything is copied: the scenery, the style, the general meaning, the band. Only Desktop Environment the host and invited guests are different:

VK Tonight

... taking it to the Metaverse

[Clarity]

... emphasizing small size and resource consumption at all costs, I think the focus should change to responsiveness, better out-of-the-box usability and lower resource consumption compared to other distros with similar functionality. ...

ABSOLUTELY! This is no longer 2004.

... Is it worth it?.

Not Probably; "absolutely" considering the domain host and user-side changes over the past 5 years. Today's users are no longer local app users in comparison to years ago. Many users now spend 95% of their time in their cloud IDs versus a decade ago. To accomplish the responsiveness, this is required especially for those users that I am seeing who have upwards of 20+ webpages open in a single sitting session.

... Unlike XFCE, LXDE, MATE, GNOME and KDE where their DE, file management, and hotkeys was almost the same as MS Windows so the transition to linux was easier. Providing official Puppy with alternative DE will do the trick. ...

Accurate if we want it to be easier for users, no matter their backgrounds, to step into PUPs and begin use without any eye-rolling of lacking behavior changes.

Maybe, the WoofCE current investigations as they continue incorporating Wayland will lead to the new DE environment to can be worldly consistent. OR...Maybe not. We'll see.

[mistfire]

@peebee' s LxPup and my QuickPup64 reflects what alternative Puppy should be like for Linux newbies also it attracts other Linux distro users too.

[mistfire]

About filesize concern, sadly these components are getting bigger as time passes:

* Media Player and Multimedia framework
* Browsers and HTML rendering engine
* MESA
* ICU
* Ghostscript
* Perl
* GTK

Also sometimes the most user friendly program was written in Python which adds more bloat

[Grey]

Also sometimes the most user friendly program was written in Python which adds more bloat

I agree. Sometimes Python utilities are simply excellent or even have no analogues. I have to keep two Python branches on board, 2.X and 3.X.

[JASpup]

About filesize concern, sadly these components are getting bigger as time passes:

* Media Player and Multimedia framework
* Browsers and HTML rendering engine
* MESA
* ICU
* Ghostscript
* Perl
* GTK

Also sometimes the most user friendly program was written in Python which adds more bloat

There's an English expression that doubtlessly exists in other cultures:

Two heads are better than one.

With those two you figure out, if you cannot control something:

We need this.
We can do without that.

Browsers are ridiculous.

[JASpup]

Today's users are no longer local app users in comparison to years ago. Many users now spend 95% of their time in their cloud IDs versus a decade ago. To accomplish the responsiveness, this is required especially for those users that I am seeing who have upwards of 20+ webpages open in a single sitting session.

Clarity I've seen this topic before in your other posts: The cloud is about money, to replace the days when Microsoft could charge a ransom for its office suite.

Google does not want us on Chromebooks for budget computing. It is the same logic as social networks - give something free and addicting so we can exploit (obviously Chromebooks are not free but cheaper than Windows).

I respect if that is your trade as there is some social usefulness in it, but by design Linux is a tool for resistance.

Technically it is clearly not simple compared to the Windows machines most of us started with, but the answer is a dual-booting Chromebook with Puppy or a distro so compelling no one would miss ChromeOS.

Privacy and autonomy are strong selling points. The cloud should be an option and not the only paved path.

[JASpup]

@peebee' s LxPup and my QuickPup64 reflects what alternative Puppy should be like for Linux newbies also it attracts other Linux distro users too.

I might look at Puppy LXQt sometime, but XFCE is radically better than LXDE with a system resource discrepancy I cannot observe, because my 32-bit bottlenecks are invariably the CPU and limited instruction sets before 2gb of ram (heeding the fact that I cannot open a lot of browser windows).

You can see higher ram and media space consumption in XFCE but not significantly slower performance.

My guess observation is the Lx series has evolved into ydrv.

[JASpup]

Puppy is the #1 distro to run all in ram.

Top Con? "In danger of becoming obsolete"

https://www.slant.co/topics/1837/~best- ... ely-in-ram

[benali72]

@mistfire and @peebee have created some great puplets that fulfill what Puppy needs to climb the Distrowatch rankings.

Any chance of them being listed on the Puppy main page and becoming Official Puppies?

One other idea -- is Puppy in the NOOBS distribution for Pi? I couldn't find it there. If it isn't just getting the Pi version into NOOBS could make a big difference.

[bigpup]

Getting anything into the Distrowatch Puppy page, is up to the Puppy version developer, submitting it to 01micko (Puppy Linux Master Steward), and him allowing it to be listed as an official Puppy version.

Can also submit directly to Distrowatch as it's own version of a Linux OS.
Example:
EasyOS
https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=easyos
Fatdog
https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=fatdog

[benali72]

If our goal is getting Puppy a higher rank at Distrowatch, instead of listing EasyOS and Fatdog as entirely different distros, they should be included within Puppy as variants.

As I write this, Puppy is ranks 23 with 388 hits. EasyOS is ranks 38 with 270 hits.

If EasyOS was consolidated with Puppy, Puppy would rank 14, with 658 hits.

It's an easy fix.

======================================================================================

But here's our real problem....

That ranking of best distros that run in ram that JASpup linked to says that Puppy is becoming obsolete. Exactly the same way Damn Small Linux did some years ago. See https://www.slant.co/topics/1837/~best- ... ely-in-ram

Putting an xfce or lxqt Puplet on the main download page as a fully supported version would address this.

[rockedge]

I've been experimenting with the xfce4 desktop on WeeDog-Void builds. I started out using JWM - ROX which is a good option and while testing out wiak's build scripts I began to test xfce4 with success. I would think an option in woof-CE that chooses whether to use jwm - rox or a xfce4 desktop for a build of a Puppy Linux distro would be useful. Most likely though quite a bit of additional scripting is needed to do this.