No simple way to install Puppy on HDD as dual boot?

[ramog]

Hi community. First post here, but have been reading for some time.
I have been used Puppy before, and now again, at the moment from usb stick.
I want to do a complete install, with dual or even triple boot, on an old Asus P5KPL/1600 mobo with Pentium Dual Core E5200, 1GB RAM. I want to make this systm a vintage gaming platform (I know, I need more ram) and currenty testing all kind of ethernet, wifi and VGA boards I found around (seems none of the RTL8139D-based pci lan cards work in ANY OS... windows/antix/puppy/mx/lubuntu... and I only have about 5).
Thing is, I already installed Antix in dual boot with Windows 10, and both worked fine together.
Then switched to Windows 7 (Win 10 seemed slightly slow ) and now I want to install both Antix and Puppy. Antix works very well so does Puppy. I like Puppy more 'cos the configuration is more user-friendly, but I still would like to keep Antix. For the sake of it.

My HDD is partitioned as follows:

Code: Select all

-> 150 GB Windows 7 installed.
-> 100 GB Extended partition freshly made for Linux (with the intention to support two distros)
------> 50 GB Logical - created for Antix (root and home)
------> 50 GB Logical - created for Puppy (root and home)
-> ~ 40 GB Data/Docs partition (for both linux and windows)
-> 3 GB Swap partition.

Funny thing, after I did this, I found a seemingly pretty well-written guide mentioning that this kind of configuration is valid: https://itectec.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-insta ... partition/
While I partitioned the 2nd partition like this, I deleted the existing Antix install. Now I want to install Puppy, then Antix, while keeping Windows.

Now... the question?

When installing Antix, it simply recognised Windows 10 and dual boot worked fine (it uses its own boot selection screen). To be honest I was impressed. For other distros dual boot works with the plain blue grub screen. Still fine. But I was wondering if Puppy (BionicPup32) can do the same.
I spent some time setting the Windows install to my liking and I don't want to destroy it.
I keep reading about various way of achieving dual boot with puppy and it all seems very complicated. Why do I need LICK? And what a hell is that? Why can't Puppy use grub loader like Antix?
And none of the guides say "just install puppy over windows, it will recognize it fine and install as dual boot"... Why not? Is this not the case?
Any help please?
Thanks!

Not to complain and no offense meant, but I did search and did find various info (as mentioned above).
A fairly recent post (viewtopic.php?t=3170) in my opinion only ads to the confusion.
Three posts one after the other recommend differnt things:
- leave it on USB and don't install (but this is not what the OP wanted)
- install as the GUI is simple and clear (but I don't see any mention of recognising existing windows install)
- use LICK.
A simple and clear guide would be nice, on this topic. Preferably created or endorsed by the people who are behind Puppy.
Or at least some reassurance that dual boot will just work (like in the case of Ubuntu, MX and Antix).

Meanwhile I started the full install and I am curious if I will still be able to boot windows....

EDIT 2: finally, the installer reached the point where it mentions Grub4Dos... it appears my problem might be solved

[amethyst]

Easiest way for me anyway: Install windows 7 first on an ntfs partition, afterwards you need to get a Puppy going (easiest way is to burn the iso to cd). Once you have booted Puppy you can do the rest of your dual-boot installation (frugal install for Puppy) with the available Puppy tools. Yes, Grub4Dos works well as boot loader. The necessary tools are in Puppy's menu.

[ramog]

Yes, I can finally confirm installing Puppy as dual boot is as simple as for any other Linux Distro that can do that.
Dual boot worked fine (even if the initial entries proposed for grub were too many, including frugal and duplicate puppy entries, but can edit them easily; i let them there and e.g. frugal does not work because I don't have that installation).

The only problem now is that after also installing Antix, which uses its own bootloader (I suppose it is still Grub or Grub4dos but only with an Antix graphical theme) it kept my Windows install but deleted any entry for Puppy.
I suppose I will have to find the grub menu and re-add an entry for Puppy.
I just have to recheck the order of the partitions.

I do noticed 3 issues with my fresh install:
1. It seems the wifi settings are not saved - maybe because I have 3 network adapters?
2. Cannot updated. Not sure if the update works like in other distros (rolling ones?) or like in windows update, but when trying to "update" Puppy I got a strange message that I can only update from a lover version ISO, so I was supposed to roll back to that one... wtf?
3. The mouse sensitivity too, appears not to be saved - when I edit it I get a message that the setting will be saved for this session...
Other than that, Puppy runs very fine.

[rockedge]

The real strength of Puppy Linux is not having to continuously chase the update dragon.

I have literally run some Puppy's as full web servers exposed to internet for like 10 years, some machines only have been off during power outages, so have up times measured in months and years, that I never have really updated other than the web server software once in a while. I have machines running Puppy's that are dedicated Zoneminder machines doing full net and local camera security with full motion detection, object recognition and do face recognition even tell if one is wearing a mask or not. Those systems I rarely update the operating system. If I do I just replace it with a newer Puppy.

Sure I have OS's like WeeDogs based on Void Linux that have rolling updates every hour if so desired but I do like looking at a machine built circa 2007 running smoothly with something like UPUP 3.9.9.2 a Puppy based on Ubuntu Raring. Thing runs and runs as a network gateway feeding reverse proxy to several machines down stream each a separate web server running various flavors of web server software. Still going since I set it up in 2011.

My philosophy is why update something that already runs optimally tweaked and has proven it's security over and over again? It's all about the configuration.

I run as root and when I don't it's because I'm forced too. The original Puppy Linux forum ran on the same software for 15 years before we had to upgrade it.

but when trying to "update" Puppy I got a strange message that I can only update from a lover version ISO, so I was supposed to roll back to that one... wtf?

how did you attempt to update? The update button in the Puppy Package Manager updates the repos.

Are you using a save "folder" or a "savefile"?

[one]

[...]
2. Cannot updated. Not sure if the update works like in other distros (rolling ones?) or like in windows update, but when trying to "update" Puppy I got a strange message that I can only update from a lover version ISO, so I was supposed to roll back to that one... wtf?
[...]

If you are using bionicpup32 - as you mentioned - Applications>System>System Updates will lead you to a page on sourceforge where you can download a "delta"-update to the original bionicpup32+0 iso - which you probably don't have at this moment.

So click on "Parent folder" on top of the list and you will find the base iso +0 (as well as the newest iso +28.)

Howto:
- download .delta and put into same directory as base .iso
- click on .delta to generate new .iso
- check md5 sumcheck of new .iso against *.iso.md5.txt file contents
- click on new .iso to open it
- copy updated files (usually just puppy*.sfs) to frugal install directory - close new .iso by clicking on it - reboot

If you have the newest bionicpup32+28 already running there is nothing to do at the moment.

peace

[mikeslr]

You'll find other recipes on this Section, viewforum.php?f=155&start=25 but I only have experience with the one provided by foxpup, viewtopic.php?p=16170#p16170.
Install Antix 2nd. It's bootloader will provide a boot-listing for windows OOTB. You can then decide where you want to locate Puppy. As a Frugal Install it only needs its own Folder. You could place that folder on Windows MAIN partition --the big one-- or, better, on the same partition as Antix. [On a Linux formatted partition such as used by Antix you can create a SaveFolder on shutdown which will make your life easier: its starts small and grows in size as you install stuff. On a ntfs or Fat32 partition, you'd have to create a SaveFile to preserve settings, customizations, and installed applications. It starts with a fixed size you have to determine (suggest 2Gbs as you're new; usually you won't need as much). Puppys have applications to grow but not shrink SaveFiles]. Best yet would be a dedicated partition for Puppys*. But Windows should create it as Windows doesn't respond well to other operating systems taking control over Storage Space it thinks it owns.
Just to flesh-out what foxpup wrote:
To do a frugal install, from a bionicpup32 booted from a USB-Key do the following:
Create the aforementioned folder: Left Click the desktop-drive Icon to mount the partition where you choose to locate Puppy. Then Right-Click an empty space and from the pop-up window select New>Directory. Give it an appropriate name, e.g. bionic32. Left-click that folder to open it and leave it open.
Left-click the Desktop-drive icon for your USB-Key. On it you'll see these files:
adrv_upupbb_19.03.sfs, fdrv_upupbb_19.03.sfs, puppy_upupbb_19.03.sfs, zdrv_upupbb_19.03.sfs, initrd.gz and vmlinuz. Left-Press, Hold, then drag each into the 'bionic32' folder and select Copy. If you see a file named upupbb_save...sfs, don't copy now. The foregoing are what constitutes Bionicpup's System Files. The other files on the USB-Key are only needed to create a boot-mechanism and its menu.
foxpup's post shows how to add a Puppy to grub2 bootloader which is what Antix uses.
If you want to use the SaveFile that's on your USB-Key, once you've booted into Puppy on your hard-drive, plug in the USB-Key and copy it into the 'bionic32' folder per above technique.

My only other suggestion is to copy the Puppy menuentry which will be used by Antix's grub2 to a document folder in Antix. When Antix updates it may be lost.

Well, maybe one other suggestion. As I mentioned Frugal Puppys only need their own folder. You might want to see how well your computer responds to a 64-bit Puppy. 32-bit Applications and in particular 32-bit Web-browsers are getting harder and harder to find.

-=-=-=-=-
* The main reason having a dedicated partition for Puppys is to avoid the question about what to do with all the Puppy Stuff if later your want to replace Antix with, say, Manjaro. A new Linux install usually starts by it wiping clean the partition previously used by a different Linux. A less significant reason is that over time having an accumulation of portables, appimages and SFSes used by Puppys on your Antix partition can look messy.

[JASpup]

I don't really know what you mean by a complete install, unless you mean full: https://puppylinux.com/install.html

I would only do that if you need it for gaming. Frugal is recommended and most common.

Since your BIOS allows USB booting I would continue to do that.

I always boot Puppy from a USB. The os itself is either in the USB or on an internal drive (that the USB controls like a switch).

Leave Windows on the internal drive if it works. I just got out of Windows 7 to defragment a FAT32 USB drive used for Puppy and to install other distros on it, but on the Internet (like now), I'm always in Linux.

When you make major changes to a Windows system it's very difficult to go back, and with Linux you can keep it.

This is the Windows tool I just used, imo the best: https://www.pendrivelinux.com/yumi-mult ... b-creator/

[JASpup]

I have machines running Puppy's that are dedicated Zoneminder machines doing full net and local camera security with full motion detection, object recognition and do face recognition even tell if one is wearing a mask or not. Those systems I rarely update the operating system. If I do I just replace it with a newer Puppy.

kick ass
that's what i would do if i were more technical
that's a career in these times

i have one little d-link that i can't see remotely on android anymore because it's setup for sprint and does not work on t-mobile. that and i keep having to fix notifications which stop maybe because there are too many of them? oh hell.

i've been trying this owlr app but it's not d-link's app, it's t-mobile's network. zoneminder seems like a full-function answer for future endeavors.

hijack apologies

[ramog]

The real strength of Puppy Linux is not having to continuously chase the update dragon.

Yeah, not a fan myself, especially since I am using HDD which is not in the best shape.

how did you attempt to update? The update button in the Puppy Package Manager updates the repos.

I used the "System Updater" entry in the main menu - > System.
After the message, it opened a sourcforge page to download bionicpup32-8.0+28-uefi.iso.
However, my version is 19.03 so this so... this seems a little over the board.

Are you using a save "folder" or a "savefile"?

It was already installed in its own partition.

If you are using bionicpup32 - as you mentioned - Applications>System>System Updates will lead you to a page on sourceforge where you can download a "delta"-update to the original bionicpup32+0 iso - which you probably don't have at this moment.

If you have the newest bionicpup32+28 already running there is nothing to do at the moment.
peace

Yeah, I noticed that too - as I'm on 29.03 already... nothing really to update. I just did it out "muscle memory" after using AntiX on one of my systems for a few weeks.

Meanwhile, because AntiX overwrote the Puppy's grub menu and I could not find a easy way to repair this, but also because I needed one more partition, I restarted installing everything on the current system, with the final goal of having Windows XP, Windows 7, Antix and Puppy all on the same system.
Until now, I have the first three in triple boot.
I did have some new problems with the installation of Puppy - once it froze with mouse cursor beinng able to be moved but system was unresponsive to clicks, other time froze with blinking keyboard leds... now I reached the grub menu and ... it seems also Puppy cannot see Antix so this time it will be the other way around - Puppy will overwrite Antix's boot entry.

EDIT - ah but I stand corrected!
It does see an "Unknown" entry at sda6/boot - this must be Antix. Windows - both versions- I know they only have one entry.

[mikeslr]

Puppy's 'built-in' boot-utility (grub4dos) has always been able to recognize and automatically create a menu-listing for Windows and Puppys. But it doesn't always recognize other LInux operating systems.
I believe shinobar's Grub2config, viewtopic.php?p=29703#p29703 does*. You may want to install and run it.
Note, it will replace the current boot-loader. It's new --published this July-- and I haven't used it. That's why I suggested letting Anti-X's boot-loader retain control. That, the fact that it's thread is now 11 pages, and not yet having had breakfast is why I'll cut this short.
Suggest you review those pages and ask any question ON THAT THREAD before going further.

Edit:
Well, I've had breakfast and switched to my Laptop. This computer does not use UEFI booting. I have it configured to Multi-boot. It came with Windows 7. I left that on the hard-drive, but restructured that to create two Linux Partitions: one for a 'Major Distro', the other for Puppies. Currently, MX Linux 19.2 feo occupies the 1st Linux partition and a couple of Puppys the 2nd.
I booted into Bioncipup64, downloaded and installed Grub2config from the above post. Did not, as yet, execute a Save to make it a permanent part of that system, but did Menu>Exit>Restart-X (AKA Graphical Server) which causes Puppy to Re-catalog its available application. And ran Menu>Fixmenus to have the new application appear on the menu. [Those two steps are not always necessary, but can't hurt. Trying to remember excepts would].
Started Menu>Setup>Grub2 bootloader config and pressed OK a couple of time.
Attached is a graphic of the Operating systems it found and the Menu it proposed to create:

grub2config-finds Mx.png (47.04 KiB) Viewed 2219 times

As you can see, Grub2config found and offered to create a boot-listing for Puppys, Windows and MxLinux.
It should work for Anti-X. IIRC, the Devs of Mx Linux take part in the creation of Anti-X. But, 'while your experience may differ', installing grub2config should leave you no worse off then you are now: a boot-loader recognizing Puppys and Windows.

--=-=-=-=--
* There seems tp be one exception which is discussed on the Grub2config thread.

[mikeslr]

I just used grub2config to create a boot device with menu-listing for my Desktop computer. Menu listing for Puppys all were similar to this:

menuentry 'Bionicpup64 8.0 (sda3/bionic64)'{
search --no-floppy --set=root --fs-uuid 39ff128d-806e-45a0-9c0c-4013859ec05d
linux /bionic64/vmlinuz psubdir=/bionic64 pmedia=atahd pfix=fsck
initrd /bionic64/initrd.gz
}

I always open the grub.cfg file in a text editor and make one change as indicated by the following revision. The 'blue' in the text is only for emphasis. In actuality, it's the same color as the rest of the schema:

menuentry 'Bionicpup64 8.0 (sda3/bionic64)'{
search --no-floppy --set=root --fs-uuid 39ff128d-806e-45a0-9c0c-4013859ec05d
linux /bionic64/vmlinuz psubdir=/bionic64 pmedia=ataflash pfix=fsck
initrd /bionic64/initrd.gz
}

Technically, the default argument is correct for hard-drives. What the revision does is 'trick' Puppy into treating the hard-drive as if it were a USB-Stick. The practical difference this makes is that treated as a hard-drive the changes made are always written to your SaveFile or SaveFolder when you shut-down/reboot. Changes are also written periodically (default every 30 minutes). You can change the interval: Menu>System>Puppy Event Manager, Click the Save Session Tab, Change the number near the bottom. But you can't prevent all Saves. That means the mistakes you made, the applications you tried which didn't work and junk you didn't know you picked up while surfing will be written to your SaveFile/Folder.
If you 'trick' Puppy into thinking it's booted from a USB-Key, you can use the above instructions to set the Save Interval to '0/zero' and put a 'check' in the 'Ask at Shutdown box' if one isn't there. A Save icon will appear on your desktop: you can manually Save at any time. [Also, by opening a terminal and typing save2flash]. At shutdown/reboot you'll be asked if you want to save with two boxes "Save" and "No Save". "Save" will be highlighted -- all you need do is press return. But the default action is "No Save". If you do nothing the computer will shutdown/reboot without Saving in 60 seconds.

HINT, HINT TO SHINOBAR: I DON'T KNOW WHY THAT'S NOT THE DEFAULT FOR HARD-DRIVES. [Technical pupmode 13 rather than 12]. The user looses nothing and gains flexibility and better control. I don't know of anyone who wants Pupmode 12; and the few who do could simply edit grub.cfg's argument as most of us who know the difference and have to make the edits now have to do.

[bigpup]

The practical difference this makes is that treated as a hard-drive the changes made are always written to your SaveFile or SaveFolder when you shut-down/reboot. Changes are also written periodically (default every 30 minutes). You can change the interval: Menu>System>Puppy Event Manager, Click the Save Session Tab, Change the number near the bottom. But you can't prevent all Saves. That means the mistakes you made, the applications you tried which didn't work and junk you didn't know you picked up while surfing will be written to your SaveFile/Folder.

This is not correct about running in pupmode 12, (pmedia=atahd).

In pupmode 12
The save is always read write.
Anything you do, that is something that goes into the save, is written to the save, as you do it.
There is no saving at shutdown. It has already been done.
You cannot adjust this.
In pupmode 12 the options in Menu>System>Puppy Event Manager>Save Session are grayed out. Cannot be selected.

In pupmode 13 (pmedia=usbflash)
Writing to the save is controlled.
By default a time period of every 30 minutes it saves.
Can adjust this or turn it off.
A save icon is placed on the desktop. Click on to save when you want to.
At shutdown it will auto save, unless you select to be asked at shutdown to save or not save. (set to save, with 60 seconds delay, to allow change to no save)
The setting options are in Menu>System>Puppy Event Manager>Save Session

by opening a terminal and typing save2flash]. At shutdown/reboot

Not sure why you are doing this.
The settings in Puppy Event Manager>Save Session are already doing this control.

[bigpup]

I DON'T KNOW WHY THAT'S NOT THE DEFAULT FOR HARD-DRIVES. [Technical pupmode 13 rather than 12]

Goes all the way back to how Puppy saved, before pupmode 13 was developed.
Well, works with no adjustments having to be made.

you would be surprised, how many people forget to save, when in pupmode 13, and having, ask at shutdown, as an option.

I sure have.
I installed something I want to keep.
Have save at set time peroiod turned off.
Ask at shutdown to save.

Did not click on desktop save icon.

At shutdown I am asked to save.
I kind of automatically select no save.
I forget that I never saved that install.
I did something for sure I do not want to save.
Kind of a conflict at that point.
If I save I am keeping everything. (what I want to save and what I do not)

[mikeslr]

You're right. See, https://bkhome.org/archive/puppylinux/d ... works.html. Scroll down to PUPMODE 12.
"Thus, there is no tmpfs ramdisk intermediary. File pup_save.3fs is directly read and written to." ="The save is always read write.
Anything you do, that is something that goes into the save, is written to the save, as you do it."
Which is even worse than I thought. Because it not only every thing you do --every mistake, every installed application which didn't work or which broke another application: you can't test before committing something to your system.* It's every bit of crap downloaded when you access a website; every malicious act perpetrated on your system if you are hacked. True you can uninstall applications. But the install may have over-written a file and uninstall leave nothing except broken applications which depended on that file. And, if you're using a SaveFile uninstall doesn't free-up all the space which was used by the application. And you can't uninstall things you didn't know were installed.
Pupmode 12 made sense when Barry K created it in 2006. Computers were seldom sold with more than 256 Mbs of RAM; and 512 Mbs of RAM was a luxury. Pupmode 12 conserves RAM by directly writing to Storage rather than holding something in RAM until intentionally saved*. That was 15 years ago. Today, RAM is cheap; usually had in Gibabytes, while Puppys' demands for RAM even under Pupmode 13 remain minimal. And the Web has become a much scarier place.
On occasion I also forget to execute a desired Save. But that's at worst a petty annoyance. My download folder has been symlinked out of /root. Packages I downloaded, even using PPM, are not in /root. If I forgot to install them they're a couple clicks away. But even if I hadn't created that system, it only takes a couple of minutes to start from scratch.
A broken SaveFile/Folder is a PITA to fix or replace with a backup (if I created a backup). And a maliciously corrupted SaveFile/Folder could be in use for months, forever, if I didn't know it was corrupted.
No one likes change. But the world changes, and those who adapt to the world as it currently exists have a higher probability of success. So, I'll repeat:
"HINT, HINT TO SHINOBAR: I DON'T KNOW WHY THAT'S NOT THE DEFAULT FOR HARD-DRIVES. [Technical pupmode 13 rather than 12]. The user looses nothing and gains flexibility and better control. I don't know of anyone who wants Pupmode 12; and the few who do could simply edit grub.cfg's argument as most of us who know the difference and have to make the edits now have to do."
-=-=-=--
* Under Pupmode 13, having 'installed' but not Saved thus only in RAM, an application can be tested: does it work? does it need some missing file? does it break some other application? To test it, Menu>Exit>Restart-X (AKA Graphical Server). Puppy re-catalogs what make up its system. Works for almost all applications. Using PPM, I've had applications download in excess of 40 packages, each containing multiple files. Trying to figure out which of those files broke something in my SaveFile/Folder would have been a nightmare.

[amethyst]

In pupmode 12
The save is always read write.
Anything you do, that is something that goes into the save, is written to the save, as you do it.
There is no saving at shutdown. It has already been done.
You cannot adjust this.
In pupmode 12 the options in Menu>System>Puppy Event Manager>Save Session are grayed out. Cannot be selected.

So just force Puppy to boot in pupmode 13 by changing the boot media to flash, ie: pfix=ataflash. Very little effort.

[amethyst]

No one likes change. But the world changes, and those who adapt to the world as it currently exists have a higher probability of success. So, I'll repeat:
"HINT, HINT TO SHINOBAR: I DON'T KNOW WHY THAT'S NOT THE DEFAULT FOR HARD-DRIVES. [Technical pupmode 13 rather than 12]. The user looses nothing and gains flexibility and better control. I don't know of anyone who wants Pupmode 12; and the few who do could simply edit grub.cfg's argument as most of us who know the difference and have to make the edits now have to do."

You may lose things you may have wanted to save during a session in case of a power outage though (using a desktop at least)... and of course the scenario when you set the interval to "0" and forget to save your changes during a session or at shutdown. But I agree - the advantages of running in pupmode 13 outweighs the disadvantages for most.

[mikeslr]

Don't make too much of the disagreement between bigpup and I. One of the great things about Puppy is its flexibility: there's no one Dev or even a Committee to say 'This is How Your Puppy must do things'. Your Puppy is how you make it.
And one of the best things about this Forum is that the opinions of all are welcome; well, as long as you are writing about software and not criticizing the personality or style of others.
As indicated by the dialog above, bigpup has a far better memory than I. He also spends more time testing applications being developed for Puppy. I will often defer to his judgment. I, on the other hand, like to build things. If I discover some application one of my Puppys doesn't have, or someone asks for a particular application not yet available, I spend my time trying to build or get it running. So I'm particularly concerned with maintaining the integrity of my Puppys, and of knowing just how things fit together.

[bigpup]

I am not disagreeing with you.

That is why I made this topic over a year ago:
Force to run in pupmode 13
viewtopic.php?t=263