Next "Personal" technology frontier

[Clarity]

PCs and use thereof continue to advance. We've gone from 8bit to 64bit. It seemed, strongly, that it would move to 128bit in mainstream motherboard (I did not forget nVidia), but 'now' it may be abandoned as there is a rising push in Quantum.

Anyway, we move from text-only screens to GUI to audio to multimedia to dictation to the web to cameras to home interconnected systems to audio communications to video communications with others to gaming from rudimentary to anime to drones controlled by PCs to ... and now we are on the doorstep of using our PCs to manage-dictate-control-order fully autonomous units like our cars, like the DOGs posted on the forum, here, to the announcement of the last hour.

All in my lifetime.

[backi]

Clarity wrote:

Anyway, we move from text-only screens to GUI to audio to multimedia to dictation to the web to cameras to home interconnected systems to audio communications to video communications with others to gaming from rudimentary to anime to drones controlled by PCs to

--------------------------------------------

and now we are on the doorstep of using our PCs to manage-dictate-control-order fully autonomous units like our cars,

Does not concern/affect me that much ..cause i am rather "Old School"......----I am just riding ( fully autonomous myself) an old second Hand Bicycle.....while having a lot of Fun.

What does worry me much more is......it seems Smartphones getting smarter and smarter .....but their Users are getting dumber and dumber.
Their (Tv) Screens are getting larger and larger.....but their Hearts are getting smaller and smaller.

We are talking about "Artificial Intelligence".----------------But what about natural/organic Intelligence?

Welcome to "The Matrix"----------Welcome to "The Machine" ......
Welcome to "Hell".......Brother!
Hail "Cyber Satan"!

Elon Musk REVEALS Tesla Bot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUP6Z5voiS8
The Bot will be able to connect to your Mind for those who get the Neuralink Brain Chip.

Reminds me on a Quote from Andy Warhol.......from the 70th ...or so....

I WANT TO BE A MACHINE
EVERYBODY SHOULD BE A MACHINE

And this is a Reply from backi:

I DON`t WANT TO BE A MACHINE.
NOBODY SHOULD BE A MACHINE

Best Wishes ,stay healthy .......and have some Fun too ...Mate!

[wiak]

What does worry me much more is......it seems Smartphones getting smarter and smarter .....but their Users are getting dumber and dumber.
Their (Tv) Screens are getting larger and larger.....but their Hearts are getting smaller and smaller.

We are talking about "Artificial Intelligence".----------------But what about natural/organic Intelligence?

Welcome to "The Matrix"----------Welcome to "The Machine" ......

I worry about the same. It would be dumb not to keep alert to these growing dangers. Though I personally try to avoid more 'emotive' metaphoric language about these matters (e.g. satanist, devilish, etc etc) that does not mean that I do not worry about the destructive social potential involved in the growingly connected Internet. That's another reason though why it is important for as many of us as possible to keep abreast of developments and not simply from the point of view of being excited about the new facilities such 'internet cloud' connections bring us, but also to allow us to more authoritatively (expertly) understand the overall consequencies and potential population control issues inherently involved.

Good to avoid the 'emotive' language though - since then we are better placed to discuss the truth behind many of these worries more reasonably whilst avoiding friction with others who are highly religious or left wing or right wing (whatever these 'wings' mean) and so on... So, I'm happy to discuss these dangerous aspects of modern technology, but not if emotive language is being pushed into the discussions, which simply abuses others and incites division and creates an unpleasant atmosphere that destroys further well-intentioned and understandably concerned discussion.

I am not myself religious whatsoever, and wear no particular 'wing' on my shoulder (though others may 'judge' my views one way or the other). I dislike the attitude of some others, absolutely, but that should not prevent me having debates/discussions with them if we all can avoid abusive emotive language.

[Grey]

As a child, I had a book (it's still on the shelf). "Professor Fortran's Encyclopedia". In this book, Professor Fortran and his friends (Cat X, Sparrow and Caterpillar) told children what a computer is, what it consists of, how it works and all that. The book was almost like a smart comic. For me, this is an example of what a book for primary school age about computers should be.

So, because of this book, I wanted to have a computer. Unfortunately, the situation in the country was such that it was impossible. But that's not the point. The main thing is that then I believed that computers will be used for "good deeds" in the future and people will be very smart using them.

And only years later, when I got a computer, I realized that technologies would be used to deceive, stupefy, fool and control the population.

And here is the book. On the right is not Dalek or cake This is a household robot. And the page explains what an Algorithm is.

[backi]

@Grey wrote:

And only years later, when I got a computer I realized that technologies would be used to deceive, stupefy, fool and control the population

Exactly this is what i regard as "Satanic".....as the highest/ultimate "evil" "(Non)-Intelligence"--- the "Dead of the empathic human Body/Spirit/Mind/Soul .....
That is the Opposite of "Good-God"......the highest/ultimate benevolent/good.....living human Body/Spirit/Mind/Soul Intelligence.
(in my Definition)
Nothing to do with Religion......just some kind of abstract/common but somehow "technoid" Coordinate /Measurement System i tried to apply.

@wiak
DON`t WANT TO BE A MACHINE.
NOBODY SHOULD BE A MACHINE

Regarding "abusive" Language.......whatever "abusive" may be....probably lies in the Eye of the Beholder.

Just simply replace the metaphoric/ironic/cynic Term "Cyber Satan/Satanism" i used above....... with the lesser metaphoric/ironic/cynic Term "Techno Fascism".....and the Word "Hail"..... with Words like..."Welcome,Praise".....and things will look maybe a bit less "emotive" but a bit more "technoid".....as requested.......
Is that okay?

And so i hope nobody feels somehow "offended" any longer by some"abusive" Language of mine in some Way.

My simplified Definition:
Satan=Highest/ultimate malevolent/non-empathic/evil "Intelligence".
God=Highest/ultimate benevolent/empathic/good Intelligence.

Stay healthy .....and have Fun!

[misko_2083]

As a child, I had a book (it's still on the shelf). "Professor Fortran's Encyclopedia". In this book, Professor Fortran and his friends (Cat X, Sparrow and Caterpillar) told children what a computer is, what it consists of, how it works and all that. The book was almost like a smart comic. For me, this is an example of what a book for primary school age about computers should be.

So, because of this book, I wanted to have a computer. Unfortunately, the situation in the country was such that it was impossible. But that's not the point. The main thing is that then I believed that computers will be used for "good deeds" in the future and people will be very smart using them.

And only years later, when I got a computer, I realized that technologies would be used to deceive, stupefy, fool and control the population.

And here is the book. On the right is not Dalek or cake This is a household robot. And the page explains what an Algorithm is.
[/img]

Now you are thinking: "Yet another bed sheet size post."
Thanks for sharing your memories. Not everything used to be grey with you.

What's left to stupefy? By default most people are morons with the herd mentality.
The technology brought access to all of the world's knowledge to all the parts of the world.
And yet most people do not reach for that knowledge.
What most look for is to satify their inner wants and hidden desires.
That's why facebook became popular.
Because people want shameless self-promotion.
They don't want to be bothered with talk about tracking, censorship, propaganda and mass surveillance.

Knowledge is power.
However, some of the knowledge we keep in our memory is real some is pseudo-knowledge.
What is popular online is pseudo-knowledge and entertainment, the one that overrides our "logical circuits".
Clickbait titles and pictures exploit people's weaknesses, in-built curiosity and desires to attract more visitors.
Most people click them.
Lies, deceit and exaggerations are working and people are likely to accept more pseudo-knowledge as true.
The technology is just not enough to progress the awareness.
It's only a tool that we and others use for all sorts of purposes.

Useful tool but an evil master.
Most of the people these days stare at smartphones for a big portion of their lives.
Smartphone has many devices, GPS, a microphone, a camera, some sensors, wifi, bluetooth.
It's also a geolocator and a habbit tracking and monitoring device that serves the corporations
in knowing how to maximize the profit based on personal interests and preference.
And establishments for control of the population.
Smartphones for dumb people.
Why? Because people let them get away with it.
People are dumb and use technology to their disadvantage.
Politicians bring laws that suit them and their corporate owners that pull their strings.
Hey they are smart and use the technology in a smart way for their own advantage.
Why? Because they can.
Most people spend their time looking at cat videos,
play videogames and post pictures of themselves on Instagram for example.
Most people rather belive in lies and deception, or simply lack awareness.
Education also has it's influence on people,
and today's education is modeling graduates in such a way
they lose natural sharpness and never develop awareness.

[Grey]

Now you are thinking: "Yet another bed sheet size post."

Yet another bed sheet size post
Moreover, it is also philosophical. I was waiting for your naive childhood ideas and memories (What a good light bulb the neighbors have downstairs, but I need it more )

What's left to stupefy? By default most people are morons with the herd mentality.
The technology brought access to all of the world's knowledge to all the parts of the world.
And yet most people do not reach for that knowledge.
What most look for is to satify their inner wants and hidden desires.
That's why facebook became popular.
Because people want shameless self-promotion.
They don't want to be bothered with talk about tracking, censorship, propaganda and mass surveillance.

Yes, people are herd animals. Yes, they used to gather in some market square and discussed cool tits of the new ruler's favorite. Social media is simply a continuation of this great tradition

But a person is born by default as an empty vessel. There is no “default mentality”. Knowledge, education, technology - all this shit has little effect. Upbringing, here's the main one in the process.

Despite contempt from intellectuals, collectives of people in rural areas will survive. City loners (smart, well-read and with technology) most likely will not survive the cataclysm (and even the closure of the nearest grocery store ).

[wiak]

Knowledge is power.
However, some of the knowledge we keep in our memory is real some is pseudo-knowledge.

There being no such thing as Knowledge really. Rather, as Foucault (French philosopher) explains (well my interpretation of what he says sigh...) - knowledge is created from the process of imagination: when that which is imagined is accepted by some culture as true, it becomes "knowledge" for that culture.

https://www.powercube.net/other-forms-o ... verywhere/

Foucault was heavily influenced by the earlier work of Nietzsche in his view of how knowledge is created by discourse.

‘Truth is a thing of this world: it is produced only by virtue of multiple forms of constraint. And it induces regular effects of power. Each society has its regime of truth, its “general politics” of truth: that is, the types of discourse which it accepts and makes function as true; the mechanisms and instances which enable one to distinguish true and false statements, the means by which each is sanctioned; the techniques and procedures accorded value in the acquisition of truth; the status of those who are charged with saying what counts as true’ (Foucault, in Rabinow 1991).

Discourse, as defined by Foucault, refers to:
"ways of constituting knowledge, together with the social practices, forms of subjectivity and power relations which inhere in such knowledges and relations between them. Discourses are more than ways of thinking and producing meaning. They constitute the 'nature' of the body, unconscious and conscious mind and emotional life of the subjects they seek to govern" (Weedon, 1987, p. 108).

I refer to Foucault, because more I find than any other philosopher, he answers the questions about 'what is power', is it something some entity has, is it given, is it taken, or is it created out of the act of its exercise? This is complex.

Foucault certainly examined the operation of prisons (institutions) and illustrated various mechanisms of 'power':

‘We must cease once and for all to describe the effects of power in negative terms: it ‘excludes’, it ‘represses’, it ‘censors’, it ‘abstracts’, it ‘masks’, it ‘conceals’. In fact power produces; it produces reality; it produces domains of objects and rituals of truth. The individual and the knowledge that may be gained of him belong to this production’ (Foucault 1991: 194)

https://aeon.co/essays/why-foucaults-wo ... -than-ever

Foucault argued that if you look at the way in which prisons operate, that is, at their mechanics, it becomes evident that they are designed not so much to lock away criminals as to submit them to training rendering them docile. Prisons are first and foremost not houses of confinement but departments of correction. The crucial part of this institution is not the cage of the prison cell, but the routine of the timetables that govern the daily lives of prisoners. What disciplines prisoners is the supervised morning inspections, the monitored mealtimes, the work shifts, even the ‘free time’ overseen by a panoply of attendants including armed guards and clipboard-wielding psychologists.

Importantly, all of the elements of prison surveillance are continuously made visible. That is why his book’s French title Surveiller et punir, more literally ‘Surveil and Punish’, is important. Prisoners must be made to know that they are subject to continual oversight. The purpose of constant surveillance is not to scare prisoners who are thinking of escaping, but rather to compel them to regard themselves as subject to correction. From the moment of morning rise to night’s lights out, the prisoners are subject to ceaseless behavioural inspection.

The crucial move of imprisonment is that of coaxing prisoners to learn how to inspect, manage and correct themselves. If effectively designed, supervision renders prisoners no longer in need of their supervisors. For they will have become their own attendant. This is docility.

To illustrate this distinctly modern form of power, Foucault used an image in Discipline and Punish that has become justly famous. From the archives of history, Foucault retrieved an almost-forgotten scheme of the canonical English moral philosopher Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832). Bentham proposed a maximal-surveillance prison he christened ‘The Panopticon’. Central to his proposal was that of an architecture designed for correction. In the Panopticon, the imposing materiality of the heavy stones and metal bars of physical imprisonment is less important than the weightless elements of light and air through which a prisoner’s every action would be traversed by supervision.

The design of the Panopticon was simple. A circle of cells radiate outward from a central guard tower. Each cell is positioned facing the tower and lit by a large window from the rear so that anyone inside the tower could see right through the cell in order to easily apprehend the activities of the prisoner therein. The guard tower is eminently visible to the prisoners but, because of carefully constructed blind windows, the prisoners cannot see back into the tower to know if they are being watched. This is a design of ceaseless surveillance. It is an architecture not so much of a house of detention as, in Bentham’s words, ‘a mill for grinding rogues honest’.

So, yeah, I once studied this stuff and find it fascinating, but am no philosopher myself so cannot pretend to have any answers about Power or Knowledge myself though I do find it consoling that Power is not something that is given, but rather something that is Exercised. So I can therefore say to 'whoever you are', "Do what I tell you!!!" hahaha

Despite all of the above, by the way, I remain an ardent supporter of lockdown strategies against Covids. It works. I have been able to go to the cafe for my daily coffee most of this year because Covid has been kept at bay via sharp and extreme lockdowns here. But I made this decision to obey whilst armed with my understanding of the Panoptican via my studies of Foucault - Foucault never said all willingness to obey what a government wants is wrong or the results of the individual being 'brain-washed' - no point having governments if it was. Google's Panopticon (and Facebook, and Microsoft, and Apple, and whoever does any kind of tracking) is certainly here and growing in effect, but that does not mean that Google achieve absolute power but they are certainly creating, via their discourse and exercise of power, their view of what constitutes 'knowledge'.

[Grey]

knowledge is created from the process of imagination

Probably it will not be superfluous to mention that Internet is crammed to the brim with such pictures :

[backi]

Foucault wrote:

‘Truth is a thing of this world: it is produced only by virtue of multiple forms of constraint. And it induces regular effects of power. Each society has its regime of truth, its “general politics” of truth: that is, the types of discourse which it accepts and makes function as true; the mechanisms and instances which enable one to distinguish true and false statements, the means by which each is sanctioned; the techniques and procedures accorded value in the acquisition of truth; the status of those who are charged with saying what counts as true’ (Foucault, in Rabinow 1991).

No Facts or Arguments please......from those who are not in"Power".
Yes...Seems an Essay about political Power and Censorship.

And who needs that?
Tyrannies and Tyrants do.

Mao Zedong once wrote:

Political Power comes from the Barrel of a Gun

Any Tyrant and Tyranny (and any Lock-Down) will have an End......in the End.
But Facts will remain Facts....... in the End.

Wiak wrote:

There being no such thing as Knowledge really.

But nevertheless ...... Facts will still be Facts...... in the End.

---Only Truth is the Sword to gain the Victory of Light.----

-----Sri Aurobindo
------------------

What really is Reality ?

Backi wrote:

---Reality is just what REALLY is.----- Backi

The Rest is mere Illusion/Imagination..

Just kidding.....

[Grey]

But Facts will remain Facts....... in the End.

But how can one even distinguish fact from non-fact? There are already young people in Japan who are convinced that Hiroshima was bombed by USSR, not the USA. And young Germans are told that Kaliningrad was taken away from them "for nothing."

Just the other day, election posters with a map of pre-war Germany appeared in Germany. On them, the Russian city of Kaliningrad and the Polish city of Elblag are designated as German territories. The posters are 72 years old and refer to the Christian Democratic Union and the Christian Social Union.

The content of the posters has ceased to be a fact. But in some heads it's a "fact". And all this leapfrog can lead to sad consequences.

[backi]

Grey wrote:

But how can one even distinguish fact from non-fact?
There are already young people in Japan who are convinced that Hiroshima was bombed by USSR, not the USA.

Thats just one Example for dirty Tricks,true Lies,non-Facts,twisted Facts,engineered Illusions/Hallucinations.......,Propaganda..et cetera.

Facts remain Facts.... beyond (personal or collective) disturbed Perception or Believings (Illusions).
I am not talking about fake "Facts".I am talking about hard Facts.... real Facts.....despite of what kind of Lies are being told. ...

Just One Example:
The Laws of Gravity work/do exist (among many other "real" hard or soft Facts).....which makes our World go round .....and your Laptop work....et cetera....despite you believe/perceive it or not....these are "real".... hard Facts......because you do "exist".....which is a Fact (or is it just an Illusion?).

If you don`t longer exist...(Death)....Life with all it`s "Facts" and Lies and Illusions will still exists/survive.... even without your physical Presence. .....this is sad but .... probably a Fact.

Another Example for hard but also sad Facts is:

A lot of Governments are taxing their Citizens to Death.
Sad but true......(in Case Governments do really "exists"....not just being mere Illusions).

This are the Kind of "Facts" i am trying to talk about.

Even if the whole Mankind would believe/think in a flat Earth (Theory) .....it won`t help... would not "really" make it "really" true ......it still would be an (collective) Illusion.

So what really is Reality?
Reality is just what REALLY is......no matter what you think or believe.....or People/Governments say.

But how can one even distinguish fact from non-fact?

There is no recipe for it.
This will still remain an individual or collective Decision and a "Problem".....with all its Consequences in the End.

[Grey]

Even if the whole Mankind would believe/think in a flat Earth (Theory) .....it won`t help... would not "really" make it "really" true ......it still would be an (collective) Illusion.

O! This is an extremely interesting topic. Last year, I talked about this topic with acquaintances - with employees of a local scientific institute and employees of a local helicopter factory.

The opinions are different. The representatives of the exact sciences are confident that the Earth will not become flat. But humanitarians remembered that for a long time the Earth was flat in the heads of Mankind and this was quite a real truth.

A very interesting discussion.
-----------------------------------------
There are vivid examples. Which I have seen personally. For example, during the collapse of the USSR, 2 "psychics" appeared who "charged the water" through the TV. On TV, a man was shown moving his hands in a circle. And at home, people put a glass jar of water in front of the TV. The water in the jar was supposed to be "charged" with some kind of healing energy.
All this horror took on a massive character. Even PhDs couldn't stop their wives from participating in this. In a short time, a country with enormous scientific potential fell into the Middle Ages for several years.

So in the future, the Earth may become flat again

[misko_2083]

Now you are thinking: "Yet another bed sheet size post."

Yet another bed sheet size post
Moreover, it is also philosophical.

Not realy, just a simple observation.

Yes, people are herd animals. Yes, they used to gather in some market square and discussed cool tits of the new ruler's favorite. Social media is simply a continuation of this great tradition

That's great for a crossword puzzle, eight letters, horizontal: Refurbished tradition of tailless herds, monitored, regulated, censored and full of commercial products. Starts with the letter "F"

But a person is born by default as an empty vessel. There is no “default mentality”. Knowledge, education, technology - all this shit has little effect. Upbringing, here's the main one in the process.

There is a genetic influence as well. "Vessel" carries a memory of all of his ancestors, it's not empty it has a memory, only that memory is not accessible to the conscious mind.
Maybe it will be possible to read it once neuralink technology advances. The scary part is that memory could be implanted artificially.
There are some sf movies on that subject. Upbringing and education would become obsolete.

Despite contempt from intellectuals, collectives of people in rural areas will survive. City loners (smart, well-read and with technology) most likely will not survive the cataclysm (and even the closure of the nearest grocery store ).

It may or may not be.
Dependance on technology may cause issues in the beginning but technology can also save their lives.

Knowledge is power.
However, some of the knowledge we keep in our memory is real some is pseudo-knowledge.

There being no such thing as Knowledge really. Rather, as Foucault (French philosopher) explains (well my interpretation of what he says sigh...) - knowledge is created from the process of imagination: when that which is imagined is accepted by some culture as true, it becomes "knowledge" for that culture.
...
Despite all of the above, by the way, I remain an ardent supporter of lockdown strategies against Covids. It works. I have been able to go to the cafe for my daily coffee most of this year because Covid has been kept at bay via sharp and extreme lockdowns here. But I made this decision to obey whilst armed with my understanding of the Panoptican via my studies of Foucault - Foucault never said all willingness to obey what a government wants is wrong or the results of the individual being 'brain-washed' - no point having governments if it was. Google's Panopticon (and Facebook, and Microsoft, and Apple, and whoever does any kind of tracking) is certainly here and growing in effect, but that does not mean that Google achieve absolute power but they are certainly creating, via their discourse and exercise of power, their view of what constitutes 'knowledge'.

There is really no exact definition of what the knowledge is, that every scientist would agree with.
There are so many debates, theories and definitions about the nature of the knowledge.
Maybe this is very close to the definition of knowledge:
Knowledge is set of notions and ideas stored into articles that we fabricate out of our direct experiance
through complex cognitive processes: perception, learning, communication, association and reasoning.

Those who distribute knowledge have the power to adapt it for their own goals.
How much of what you hear on TV and read in the newspapers, and the internet is factually true?
In the case of Croatian Wikipedia a few far-right people got admin rights and pushed their views rather than facts.

Imagine what impact will this kind of technology have on what is true.
It could remove the protesters from the background and show empty street.

the Russian city of Kaliningrad

Isn't that the only place in Europe where American Hummers are made?

Even if the whole Mankind would believe/think in a flat Earth (Theory) .....it won`t help... would not "really" make it "really" true ......it still would be an (collective) Illusion.

There are vivid examples. Which I have seen personally. For example, during the collapse of the USSR, 2 "psychics" appeared who "charged the water" through the TV. On TV, a man was shown moving his hands in a circle. And at home, people put a glass jar of water in front of the TV. The water in the jar was supposed to be "charged" with some kind of healing energy.
All this horror took on a massive character. Even PhDs couldn't stop their wives from participating in this. In a short time, a country with enormous scientific potential fell into the Middle Ages for several years.

Now that's some KGB style brain washing.
I remember when the Yugoslavia was collapsing and all the hate propaganda on TV shows.
Particularly clairvoyants on TV, invention of meaningless and vulgar Turbo Folk music which even today brainwashes new generations.
Even music can be used as a weapon, and it's evident the government at the time used it.
There were few bankars working with the mobsters in the state apparatus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezdimir_Vasiljevi%C4%87 and https://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/%D0%94%D ... 0%B8%D1%9B promising big interests in TV commercials. People especially old ones belived them and invested and the bankers fled the country.
I see the resemblance to the fall of USSR.
People were distracted and dumbed down to the level of other species of primates while some could loot and rob and got rich during the process.
But it's happening in other countries by the same recipe.
It takes a lot of time and effort to build, and a very short time to destroy.

[Grey]

I remember when the Yugoslavia was collapsing and all the hate propaganda on TV shows.
Particularly clairvoyants on TV, invention of meaningless and vulgar Turbo Folk music which even today brainwashes new generations.
Even music can be used as a weapon, and it's evident the government at the time used it.

There are other examples of how things are changing.

The Russian music duo t.A.T.u. is more or less known in the world. Mainly because most of the songs are about lesbians and gays.

Another fact is much less known.
One of the girls of the duet (Lena Katina), in 1999 (she was 15 years old) recorded a song about Yugoslavia (Forgive me, my sister, Yugoslavia! Опрости ми, сестро моја, Југославијо!). You yourself know which events.
The song is sung on behalf of a man, but it was sung by a teenage girl.

But later it became more profitable to sing about lesbians and gays.

Here's a video. Version without scary shots. Just with lyrics and song.

Approximate, loose translation (Цвет in this case is more of a plant than a color):

Изнад вечерњег Дунава се шири
Бела боја, бела боја, бела боја.
И сећању се намеће мелодија
Протеклих година, протеклих година, протеклих година...

Али су се разлетеле као јата птица
Једноставне речи песме наше.
Ти одлазиш у огањ, Југославијо!
Без мене! Без мене! Без мене!

За ноћ под кишом олова,
За то што ја нисам ту негде,
Опрости ми, сестро моја, Југославијо!
За смрт под кишом пролећном,
За то што ти нисам био спасење!
Опрости ми, сестро моја, Југославијо!

Као црноока збуњена девојчица,
Стојиш на другој обали.
Али да допрем до те обале
Не могу, не могу, не могу.

[misko_2083]

You yourself know which events.

There is a good reason why old people have a saying:
"Woe to him whom the Russian defends and the Greek feeds."
And the sarcasm:
"Blessed is him whom the Russian defends and the Greek feeds. "

[Grey]

You yourself know which events.

There is a good reason why old people have a saying:
"Woe to him whom the Russian defends and the Greek feeds."
And the sarcasm:
"Blessed is him whom the Russian defends and the Greek feeds. "

Sarcasm is good But no one should relax and hang on someone's neck. "Give us something - we will be brothers! Nothing to give? Let's join the European Union!"

[misko_2083]

You yourself know which events.

There is a good reason why old people have a saying:
"Woe to him whom the Russian defends and the Greek feeds."
And the sarcasm:
"Blessed is him whom the Russian defends and the Greek feeds. "

Sarcasm is good But no one should relax and hang on someone's neck. "Give us something - we will be brothers! Nothing to give? Let's join the European Union!"

Politics and brothership are two completely different branches of human interactions.
Neck hanging , I'm pretty sure that's the best description of how diplomacy works all over the world.

Now back to topic. The computer technology advances far and fast but space travel technology not so much.
My brother bought a Chinese phone the other day, I don't remember the name of the brand, never heard of it before, 8core processor, 256GB of storage 16 GB or ram, and 100MPixel camera.
That's 0.1 Giga Pixels per image and 32MB per photo.
I think he payed 250€ or something close to it. My first PC was a Pentium with MMX instruction set at 233MHz, 16 MB of ram and a 10GB hard drive.
It cost a devil and a half. (proverb) https://www.instagram.com/p/CSeyhIoskZl/
My first phone with a camera had 640x480 ~= 0.3 Megapixel camera.

[Grey]

The computer technology advances far and fast but space travel technology not so much.

In fact, everything is great only in popular TV shows and articles on the Internet.

Computers and telephones. Development is not qualitative, but quantitative. Moreover, according to the principle "let it be" (When I find myself in times of trouble Mooother Maaaary comes to me)

Space travel? Do not make me laugh. Now in this area there is no atmosphere of romance and rivalry. The head of Roscosmos said yesterday (all my troubles seemed so faaaar away) that he was not going to compete with NASA - he just didn’t want to spend money and no buzz whatsoever. NASA itself will not fly very far in the next century. The ISS will soon be flooded and only China will have a station. Its own, separate.

All hope is in China. Finances (your brother and others are buying phones) and a huge human reserve. But technologies are a repetition of the Soviet ones with new electronics. But electronics won't help here.

Space tourists? Yes, they flew several times recently. But this is Low Earth orbit. Not space. This is an entertainment process, an attraction. Nothing to do with the development of long-distance flights. On the contrary, such an approach will ruin development.

[misko_2083]

The computer technology advances far and fast but space travel technology not so much.

In fact, everything is great only in popular TV shows and articles on the Internet.

Computers and telephones. Development is not qualitative, but quantitative. Moreover, according to the principle "let it be" (When I find myself in times of trouble Mooother Maaaary comes to me)

Space travel? Do not make me laugh. Now in this area there is no atmosphere of romance and rivalry. The head of Roscosmos said yesterday (all my troubles seemed so faaaar away) that he was not going to compete with NASA - he just didn’t want to spend money and no buzz whatsoever. NASA itself will not fly very far in the next century. The ISS will soon be flooded and only China will have a station. Its own, separate.

All hope is in China. Finances (your brother and others are buying phones) and a huge human reserve. But technologies are a repetition of the Soviet ones with new electronics. But electronics won't help here.

Space tourists? Yes, they flew several times recently. But this is Low Earth orbit. Not space. This is an entertainment process, an attraction. Nothing to do with the development of long-distance flights. On the contrary, such an approach will ruin development.

You seem to be excessively optimistic.

[jamesbond]

Space travel? Do not make me laugh.

I offer this quote from a good friend of mine, a bus driver, that he wrote near the beginning of the real Earth's space age.

The earliest known attempt to reach to the stars were rockets. Wonderful invention, and gave out even more wonderful fireworks when they failed, but you wouldn’t be able to reach the stars that way. The tyranny of rocket equations and such – don’t ask me, I know nothing of it. Only that it has something to do with momentum or something. People more knowledgeable than I have told me that it works like throwing rocks to move your canoe when you’re in a lake; and you need to bring an awful amount of rocks if you need to go some serious distance. I asked them how a canoe could carry that much rock in it without sinking; and they told me to shut up.

[Grey]

You seem to be excessively optimistic.

Do you associate yourself with the left or right character in this picture ? Probably with the right one. In vain !

The earliest known attempt to reach to the stars were rockets. Wonderful invention, and gave out even more wonderful fireworks when they failed, but you wouldn’t be able to reach the stars that way. The tyranny of rocket equations and such – don’t ask me, I know nothing of it. Only that it has something to do with momentum or something. People more knowledgeable than I have told me that it works like throwing rocks to move your canoe when you’re in a lake; and you need to bring an awful amount of rocks if you need to go some serious distance. I asked them how a canoe could carry that much rock in it without sinking; and they told me to shut up.

Not a bad comparison.

Even if we do not take into account biological factors, but operate purely technical ones, the projects of interplanetary travel seem to be very limited.

Today, one (main) of the methods of movement in outer space implemented in practice is reactive (jet) force. According to Newton's third law (the force of action is equal to the force of reaction), in order to push off from emptiness and start moving, it is required to discard part of its own mass. Alas, there is no other effective way to travel far from massive celestial bodies (stars and planets) today.

Powered by chemical engines, traveling through the Solar system in a reasonable amount of time requires gigantic spaceships with massive amounts of fuel. This is completely unacceptable in terms of the cost of resources for this trip. Even China may not have enough money

Ionic, plasma (American VASIMR and Russian БПРД) and warp engines? Yes, I am currently playing XCOM Enemy Unknown 2012 evenings (in Fossapup with Wine) But we're talking about reality, aren't we ?

[wiak]

You seem to be missing Newton's first law of motion, relevant part of which is:

an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force

There is pretty much no friction in space - once you have the spaceship moving at the speed you wish, it will continue on and on and on at pretty much the same speed barring gravitational effects (which via correct trajectory can be used to in fact speed it up). You do not thus need to carry massive amounts of fuel, though the bigger thrust you can give the spacecraft the more it will accelerate per equation: acceleration = Force/mass. Once you stop applying thrust, it will cease to accelerate but simply continue on at whatever velocity it has reached.

You already have a good example in the Voyager spacecraft, which have now left the solar system and are continuing to travel at around 56,000 km/hr.

In practice, therefore, it is perfectly possible for a spacecraft to travel between Earth and Mars and then whip round Mars (gaining further speed) whilst dropping off its payload and return to Earth (via that Mars gravitational change of direction) without requiring further fuel for that return journey.

Note further, from acceleration = Force/mass, even a very small amount of Force (thrust) applied for a long enough time could speed the spacecraft up to a large velocity (for example solar sails picking up radiation wind from the sun), after which, you just cruise to wherever you are going...

[Grey]

Voyager spacecraft

I knew that someone would cite Voyager, Pioneer or Cassini as an example. But the interstellar probe should not be confused with manned space exploration. Voyager and the rest of his "colleagues" use an РИТЭГ aka RITEG. Very low energy conversion efficiency. Will you send people to fly in an embrace with such a thing? Just don’t talk about "somehow people float on a nuclear submarine"

[Grey]

A moment of humor.
To launch a spacecraft, the rocket must first be accelerated well.

This is what the launch of the Russian automatic interplanetary station Phobos-Grunt looked like (roughly). The inscription on the barrel is Phobos-Grunt-Honey :

Phobos-Grunt-Honey.jpeg (114.32 KiB) Viewed 882 times

[jamesbond]

Artemis is postponed from 2024 to 2025. I personally would be very surprised if humans will touch their feet on the moon again in my life time. Don't get me started on Mars, considering that JWT is still on the ground after more than 20 years. And oh, Kessler is gonna be a real problem real soon now. Just you watch.

[jamesbond]

Voyager and the rest of his "colleagues" use an РИТЭГ aka RITEG. Very low energy conversion efficiency.

And on top of that, RTG only power the on-board electronics. If you ever need to change direction, RTG won't be very handy either. You still have to throw rocks, as the bus driver said.

Will you send people to fly in an embrace with such a thing? Just don’t talk about "somehow people float on a nuclear submarine"

It couldn't be worse than sitting on top of a few million litres of liquid hydrogen on your way to touch the edge of the atmosphere, right?

[Grey]

I personally would be very surprised if humans will touch their feet on the moon again in my life time.

Try to live longer. The Moon may soon be the only place to steal money flights again.

About 80% of the onboard systems of the Russian segment of the International Space Station have exhausted their resource, after overcoming the 100% barrier, irreparable failures may begin. An avalanche-like failure of numerous elements at the station will begin after 2025. Vladimir Solovyov spoke about this three days ago.

Roscosmos has two main plans. This is to build Mir-2 and fly to the Moon. The goals are the same. In order not to forget how this is all done and then cheer up the population (the population does not care ) and may even accidentally make a couple of discoveries.

But the worst thing is that without the ISS there will be nowhere to fly. Manned space exploration is under threat.

There will be automatic stations on Mars. Not a man in a spacesuit. But even if a man... Who will believe? Not everyone has believed about the people on the Moon yet.

[misko_2083]

You seem to be excessively optimistic.

Do you associate yourself with the left or right character in this picture ? Probably with the right one. In vain !

If the context behind it is the dictatorship I lost all hope anything will change, but I don't discourage the people that didn't lost hope.
In the matters of space exploration, I have no high hopes for the near future but I'm not excluding there will be progress in the future.

[jamesbond]

Try to live longer. The Moon may soon be the only place to steal money flights again.

LOL As much as I love manned space exploration and wish that we can go further (nothing is more thrilling to see one of us land on a foreign world), realistically the Moon is the farthest that we can go, unless there is a breakthrough in propulsion and communication technology.

People are trying to go to the Moon again as a stepping-stone or "transit hub" to other places - but seriously, where else can man go? Everything else is either too far, or too inhospitable. And once they realise the folly of the idea, the Moon project would probably be abandoned.

Hence, my doubts of us ever touching out feet on it again. It's not about the technology. We certainly have the technology to get there, and to stay there (just scale up ISS modules and we've got the recipe for a moon base). But it's more of sense of purpose. Why would we need to get our feet on the Moon again?

Of course, there is this talk about Helium3 mining, but wake me up after the reactor goes online for actual production use (not just anoher "successful" test).

About 80% of the onboard systems of the Russian segment of the International Space Station have exhausted their resource, after overcoming the 100% barrier, irreparable failures may begin. An avalanche-like failure of numerous elements at the station will begin after 2025. Vladimir Solovyov spoke about this three days ago.

That's bad. Really bad. Hopefully something can be done with it. If it's unsalvageable, then hopefully they can send up a new station. Better than wasting rockets for launching hundreds upon hundreds "micro satellites" for amusements.

Roscosmos has two main plans. This is to build Mir-2 and fly to the Moon. The goals are the same. In order not to forget how this is all done and then cheer up the population (the population does not care ) and may even accidentally make a couple of discoveries.

But the worst thing is that without the ISS there will be nowhere to fly. Manned space exploration is under threat.

For the sake of humanity, I hope you're successful. You guys are among the very few nations who have both the technology and resources to actually do it.

There will be automatic stations on Mars. Not a man in a spacesuit.

Wanna bet? I don't think so. The rovers are as good as it gets. You only need automatic stations if you want to serve cosmonauts coming there. And since there won't be any, hence, no need for those stations too.

But even if a man... Who will believe? Not everyone has believed about the people on the Moon yet.

Moon landing? That's bringing it too far already. There are people who still believe that the Earth is flat