THIS LANDED IN MY PM INBOX

[rockedge]

Just as a note what I woke up to today in my private message inbox:

From Clarity who is gcmartin, decided he's not to blame.

I want to apologize ahead of time if this upsets you.

Last year, when you set up the forum I thought it best to discuss a forum which DID NOT allow discourse on NON TECHNICAL discussion.

This forum is spiraling out of control with membership drawing line over non-technical stuff and things which neither apply to technology of to Puppy Linux.

If you wanted a social forum, why isn't this explain up front somewhere.

Had I known that generating a social aspect to the forum was an aim, I would NOT have signed on. It has no place in a technology place. In the sciences and technology, the answers are demonstrative. IN a social setting it is not.

NOW we have members looking at each other with the kind of hatreds I would not want to be a part of.

Did you do this intentionally? Is there something about a technology group you wanted to have to engage in political, religious, racial, or medicinal which knowingly gravitates to one side versus another and members screaming for banning. This behavior could have been avoided and is distraction and disruptive. Social discussion and social sites are elsewhere, all, over the internet and is dedicated to such. Why does it have to be HERE? Why would someone, founder or otherwise bring it here?

The members didn't create this: Those responsible for setup of this forum, did. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with individual rights. This forum is NOT a gov't. Its about the design and intent of a forum which professes to be about Puppy Linux. But seemingly invites the degenerates of a social forum vs a technical one. Its almost as if this forum is masquerading as a technical forum while it actually is a secret social forum.

If there is no policy change, I will be leaving soon.

I have 3 users who are on the very edge of deletion and a ban. I am considering removing the entire sub forum Off Topics permanently.

No cries of"freedoms" or "rights" or "it's Fascist" will stop it.

[rockedge]

If I get banned I want all my posts to get deleted..

I have the delete button selected. If anyone agrees your wish will be granted.

[amethyst]

Depends what is being posted in OffTopics. Some subjects may contain some useful information. Unfortunately, some idiots have been making misuse of the opportunity with their drivel and trolling. However - it should never be the case that the off topic section takes over the main purpose of the forum. BTW - Just ban this Joe idiot, brings nothing to the party and just wastes space. If I remember correctly he himself said that he was leaving just a week or so ago but never had the balls to do so. Help him exit.

[amethyst]

@rockedge - Instead of closing down the OTS (Off-topic Section), it may perhaps be possible to restrict the posting in the OTS. My suggestion would be to restrict a user's posting in the OTS to not more than 25% of his total posts on the forum. Don't know if this is possible but it should deter some posters from misusing the forum for off topic conversations only (mostly).

[Grey]

rockedge cannot and should not become a nanny for anyone. I remember he has the "rule of three warnings". This is right. After three strikes, there should be a ban from three days to a week.

The Rostov region of Russia is somewhat similar to Texas (climate, agriculture, harsh people), so I am in favor of the law of three strikes.

I just got tired of the medical topic I never liked hospitals and their smell

[dancytron]

FWIW, on another forum I'm on, they left the "off topic" section but just started forbidding politics, religion, etc and just deleted those posts on sight.

The trouble makers got bored and left.

[ozsouth]

I just ignore topics that either don't interest me or I can't make at least a somewhat useful contribution to. Is it possible to limit post sizes or number of daily posts allowed? Would that be helpful?

[backi]

In Case i am one of the 3 Persons on the List to be "banned"....let it be my last Post.
Probably nobody needs another smartass Comment of mine......

Nevertheless:

Grey wrote:

rockedge cannot and should not become a nanny for anyone.

Yes that`s absolutely true.

A lot of "Crybabies" out there........who are jumping into the Fire but can not stand the Heat.

Been "insulted"and slandered myself here on the Forum more than once...Did not cry for Help from the Administrator or Moderator.
I am old enough to handle and argument in a civilized and intelligent maybe even ironically Way/Manner from Person to Person....just Eye to Eye.......some can`t.......
It seems to me it is a Question of Intelligence and Adulthood.

But that does not bother me much...i know who i am.

I remember he has the "rule of three warnings". This is right. After three strikes, there should be a ban from three days to a week.

If technically possible (probably not)........this would be a generous/fair Deal....IMO.

[geo_c]

I just recently posted in Off-topic, because my post had nothing to do with Puppy in particular, but involved using software or utilities to achieve a goal. It might be good to simply re-formulate the idea of Off-topic so that it doesn't imply Any-topic.

[fredx181]

I remember he has the "rule of three warnings". This is right. After three strikes, there should be a ban from three days to a week.

I think that's a good idea, ban permanently after three warnings would be OK too, anyway, better than deleting the whole off-topic area IMHO.

[mikewalsh]

I just recently posted in Off-topic, because my post had nothing to do with Puppy in particular, but involved using software or utilities to achieve a goal. It might be good to simply re-formulate the idea of Off-topic so that it doesn't imply Any-topic.

I remember he has the "rule of three warnings". This is right. After three strikes, there should be a ban from three days to a week.

I think that's a good idea, ban permanently after three warnings would be OK too, anyway, better than deleting the whole off-topic area IMHO.

I tend to agree with both Fred AND Geoff. There's no reason why the vast majority of Puppians who don't abuse the system should have to suffer for the highly-questionable actions of a just a few trolls.

From over 25 years of belonging to one BB/forum or another, I know that an "Off-topic" area is almost a staple ingredient. These are usually watched more closely by staff than almost any other section, since most trouble invariably starts here. Forum rules also tend to be more strictly enforced here, too; after all, if plants in your garden have infectious disease, you "nip it in the bud".....so it doesn't spread to, and infect other plants.....don't you?

Any forum worth its salt DOES need to have a section similar in nature to this; members need somewhere to let off steam. The pandemic seems to have thrown up a whole new breed of trouble-maker; one who seems to be of the opinion that because everyone is online now, it's much easier to spout drivel and NOT get "smacked-down" for it. Let's go for it!

Restricting posting here to members who have made a minimum number of posts, or to a minimum period of time.....along with keeping a close eye on topics, and coming down hard on offenders.....these would go some way toward eliminating the worst of it. Unfortunately, Erik, looking after the technical side of an on-line community is only half of it; along with this, you have - to some extent - to assume the mantle of a "benevolent dictator", along with many of the traits of a seasoned diplomat.

I don't envy your position, mate. It's something of a full-time occupation that demands FULL concentration, too, but this (of course) is where your 'staff' come into their own. You delegate.....and entrust the day-to-day running of the site to a select group you know you can trust (preferably located in multiple different time zones, so that there's always someone 'on-duty', as it were).

------------------------

With regard to gcmartin/Clarity, I confess to being somewhat surprised he's hung around as long as he has. I recall he left the old Forum in something of a huff, partly because he kept coming up with suggestions that most respondents basically took the mickey out of. I get the impression that he was always used to working with groups of serious professionals, coming up with ideas to make life better for everyone, who tended to be "laser-focused" on the subject at hand. The happy, anarchic 'chaos' of the Puppy Forum must have been something of a smack-in-the-face-with-a-wet-fish to him when he originally joined.

Mike.

[TerryH]

FWIW, on another forum I'm on, they left the "off topic" section but just started forbidding politics, religion, etc and just deleted those posts on sight.

The trouble makers got bored and left.

Yes I agree, most know there are boundaries. Forum members will learn quickly that these topics become emotionally charged and won't be allowed. An Off Topic area can exist without acrimony.

[backi]

The trouble makers got bored and left.

The " trouble makers".....whatever this may be......

I myself i am quite interested in non-Conformists (a.k.a "Trouble Makers").....not so much in boring Nerds.
But that`s a personal Preference.

Forum members will learn quickly that these topics become emotionally charged and won't be allowed. An Off Topic area can exist without acrimony.

That`s Kind of funny.......and rather boring.....IMO.

Nobody is forced to look or participate in a (possibly hot) Off Topic Discussion.

Would be like someone who is into Celibacy ---visiting a Swinger Club or a "Gay Darkroom"...deeply shocked or sexually aroused ...or both.........hysterically demanding/requiring to shut down such kind of "Shop/Establishment" immediately .

Same goes for anti-alcoholics visiting a Bar..........

Thanks for having a good Laugh.

[amethyst]

The user's statistics are such a dead giveaway with regards to what sort of poster we have. These "nothing" posters have the "Truly off-topic coversations section" as their most active section of contribution. Really tells the tale of these customers. Don't know why they don't join a forum which has general off-topic discussions as main purpose instead.

[Grey]

The very presence of a "medical" theme is already a temptation to take part in it. Well, simply because it is a "everyday, about life" topic.

In general, ideally, of course, we need to communicate like this(robots): pro-oo-grams, cooompile, Linux, technologies, the Daleks will defeat the Doctor

[backi]

@Grey wrote:

The very presence of a "medical" theme is already a temptation to take part in it. Well, simply because it is a "everyday, about life" topic.

In general, ideally, of course, we need to communicate like this(robots): pro-oo-grams, cooompile, Linux, technologies, the Daleks will defeat the Doctor

Yea.....You got it ....man
An intelligent and funny Comment......i like it.

Humor is "The Doctor".
You are a good "Doctor".
B.t.W........there will no Intelligence grow were Humor is excluded/banned.

[rcrsn51]

I don't have a problem with joet12345 provided that he refrains from obvious hate-speech.

I live next to a country where 30% of the population thinks just like him and it's instructional to see the thought process at work.

[wiak]

The problem with moderation of Off-Topic Area is that it is impossible for anyone to judge what should be allowed or not - everyone has their bias. Generally, I'm not in favour of banning people - then the issue certainly does arise of majority view squashing minority view. But there are serious and divisive issues in this world of growing hate speech and fake news and all too easy ability to communicate any junk nowadays.

On one hand, we could turn a blind eye - no-one forces anyone to read posts, though it is hard to avoid seeing them and we read them anyway and the troubles and divisions inevitably arise.

Because of the damage being done to the community, I can't help but favouring technical only off-topic area rather than what is becoming a predominantly social one. The area is not new of course, it existed on John Murga's forum and there were more than occasional disagreements there too, but I don't recall seeing anything like as much junk as some people are happy to post today. And just because something once existed and was tolerated doesn't mean it will or should exist forever - not if it is causing trouble that didn't exist before - main thing is that it is not necessary for this forum's purpose and, being divisive and trouble making, is taking away from the forum's main technical purpose.

I realise this has become a social area too. Some of it's members have 'known' each other for a very long time and possibly prefer not to be limited to 'technical discussion' only, but where and when do we best draw the line? Calling people idiots and boring nerds and so on, and worse, is hardly acceptable practice, and especially not when doing so has become a constant habit of some posters here - I wish they would leave. But I don't like 'banning' since that requires judgement, which itself is subject to abuse.

One way of freeing the forum of such junk, itself, would be to simply create two off-topic areas, one being for off-topic but still technical topics area, the other being for social off-topic chit-chat but with the latter simply being a link to an agreed off-site social venue. I know that many are unwilling to use Facebook (and the Puppy Linux facebook group probably don't want the off-topic social chit chat only anyway) but we could come to an agreement of a suitable off-forum site for such chat, and simply make off-topic social a link to that other site? That way there is no exposure to recent off-topic social posts and members who want to involve themselves in that area just need to click the link... and those who don't can simply not click it and thus not become involved in the social 'discussions'. Harder to avoid when, as present, all new posts are displayed and listed as new posts in active topics - just make it an off-site link and posts not displayed here and only the few who like stirring it up the way they do will end up talking only to themselves... (they tend to take over anyway with multiple post after post in the fashion of joet12345).

[wiak]

But if Off-Topic Area stays as it is, then I definitely have to favour 'banning' certain individuals who are stuffing too much into the small space - as if they cannot ever shut up (and who cares about the content they post - nonsense certainly is nonsense, but that much can be ignored, but the trolling insults will always cause trouble and they are clearly unwilling to stop that behaviour too).

[Clarity]

I am not AS @rockedge IS claiming AND I AM NOT A PART OF ANY CONSPIRACY AS HE MENTIONS!

I sent him a "Private Message" not a public one on a concern as I am witnessing a rising tide of bad behavior on the forum.

My concern indicates that it appears that the forum is gravitating to one where administration has to be intervened for things that are unrelated to PUPPY LINUX.

If he is angered by my drawing his attention to this behavior and wants to make it PUBLIC, then he as the site's OWNER can do so.
WOW!
I started here last year as Puppy caught my attention. And seemed like a FRIENDLY place for Puppy LInux and its contributions.

NOW, as I have noticed its ownership, it is gravitating to something ugly for members who are here for Puppy Linux.
WOW!
He is the owner. And because of that priviledge he can "OUT" anyone HE chooses for any reason he chooses.

So, now he is "MAD" at me for drawing attention, PRIVATELY, to him and has taken steps to draw ALL of the PUPPY community into this gravitating madness having NOTHING to do with PUPPY LINUX or the contributions of this Linux technology and its efforts.

WOW!

So he is attempting to control by taking a "private message" (PM) to him, personally, to direct negative attention because of his anger for even mentioning the observation to him.

WATCH OUT AS HE IS ENCOURAGING OTHERS TO DO THE SAME ON THE PUBLIC FORUM.

shame!

[rockedge]

don't weedle out of it now. You accused me and laid fault on me directly. Why don't you become a moderator and put your time into it? I'll make you one now if you'd like.

[Trobin]

One way of freeing the forum of such junk, itself, would be to simply create two off-topic areas, one being for off-topic but still technical topics area, the other being for social off-topic chit-chat but with the latter simply being a link to an agreed off-site social venue. I know that many are unwilling to use Facebook (and the Puppy Linux facebook group probably don't want the off-topic social chit chat only anyway) but we could come to an agreement of a suitable off-forum site for such chat, and simply make off-topic social a link to that other site? That way there is no exposure to recent off-topic social posts and members who want to involve themselves in that area just need to click the link... and those who don't can simply not click it and thus not become involved in the social 'discussions'. Harder to avoid when, as present, all new posts are displayed and listed as new posts in active topics - just make it an off-site link and posts not displayed here and only the few who like stirring it up the way they do will end up talking only to themselves... (they tend to take over anyway with multiple post after post in the fashion of joet12345).

Tried something similar, on a forum I tried to moderate years and years ago. {now long gone.} I don't recall it working out all that well in removing discord from the main forum.

Is it possible to set the forum specs so that the OFF TOPIC area is not listed under Quick Links? So that users would have to link directly to that area to find out if there are any new posts.

[bigpup]

Now you know why this forum should be about nothing but Puppy Linux.

This applies to everyone because it is in the terms of this forum.

You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where “Puppy Linux Discussion Forum” is hosted or International Law. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned, with notification of your Internet Service Provider if deemed required by us. The IP address of all posts are recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that “Puppy Linux Discussion Forum” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit. As a user you agree to any information you have entered to being stored in a database. While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent, neither “Puppy Linux Discussion Forum” nor phpBB shall be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data being compromised.

If you are going to keep an off topic section->Truly off topic conversations.
Prepare to spend half your time trying to enforce the terms of this forum.
Or
Simply let what ever happens, happens, and do not worry about it.

[mikewalsh]

@rockedge - Instead of closing down the OTS (Off-topic Section), it may perhaps be possible to restrict the posting in the OTS. My suggestion would be to restrict a user's posting in the OTS to not more than 25% of his total posts on the forum. Don't know if this is possible but it should deter some posters from misusing the forum for off topic conversations only (mostly).

That's not always easy, either.

Amongst many others, I belong to the TechGuySupport forum. Their member with the highest post-count is WAY out ahead of anybody else; "Dotty", a British great-grandmother in her late 70s, whose major contribution is in the Forum Games section. She's been with that forum for almost 20 years, and almost all her posts nowadays consist of one word answers to ongoing games, often upwards of 60+ per day.

She has almost 175,000 posts.

Nobody complains about Dotty. The Forum community are, to her, like her family. She doesn't stir up any trouble, or concern herself with anything other than contentedly playing the current quizzes & games. Everybody is fond of Dotty, and won't hear a word against her; she's a bit like your favourite eccentric auntie, or grandma.!

The next most voluble 'poster' is over 50,000 posts behind her.....

--------------------------------------------------

Dotty may have originally joined that forum with some technical issues of one kind or another, but this woman has spent almost 20 years of her life diligently & quietly playing Forum Games.....to the tune of well over 170,000 posts. She certainly doesn't contribute in any way, shape or form to that Forum's main purpose for existing. Should she be banned? What d'you think?

OK, I know it's hardly relevant to any of OUR ongoing "issues", but it's merely an illustration of the dangers inherent in making ANY kind of sweeping statements.....

Every issue needs to be confronted/dealt with on its own merits, whether approached from the viewpoint of a standard 'template' or not. If nothing else, 15 months of moderating over at BleepingComputer HAS, so far, taught me that much. And yes; we, too, have our "problem children".....in abundance! Members who are 'annoying'.....but not annoying enough to warrant being banned.

(*shrug*)

On any issue like this, on a forum such as this, with a fair smattering of strong-minded, forthright individuals in attendance, you ask ANY 100 of them for their suggestions on how to tackle this kind of thing.......and I can guarantee you'll get as many differing replies.

Mike.

[amethyst]

an illustration of the dangers inherent in making ANY kind of sweeping statements.....

What sweeping statements? I'm making a suggestion. Your Dotty example is absurd in our situation as we do not have any "special case Dottys". Our culprits are clearly misusing the system to the detriment of the purpose of the forum. It's a fact like a cow.

[Grey]

Themis (Lady Justice) is blind.
We cannot afford Russian roulette. Well, let the moderators roll the dice. An even number dropped out - a ban. An odd number dropped - post deletion (or forgiveness - well, lucky.)

[Clarity]

I agonized not to respond to the remarks made addressing me by @rockedge . In my past, I have lauded his work both publicly and privately. In the applause, I have shared with him about the wonderful things I felt he has done. I view his efforts, until now, VERY helpful to this community on a host of levels.

I am not sure why he has chosen this day and this item on the forum and why he has made me the “Batman of this Gotham City (Puppyland)” proclaiming that I am his version of a “Bruce Wayne” as someone shared privately to me. I got a kick out of that analogy.

NO I, Bruce Wayne, am not Batman and am not a part of any legion of “supers” sent here.

So, stepping back and thinking that maybe he, @Rockedge has a ‘larger’ picture in mind. But, I cannot see it.

I am a ‘really” old guy who has 6 grands; 5 of which are between the ages of 11-16. I have done as much as I can to keep them engaged in preparation and use of the technology that they will use as they continue higher education aiming at adulthood. I support their creativity and I do what most of us do in support.

In this forum there are so many examples of that positive credit happening all over. This forum seems to be a forum FOR Puppy Linux with technology that can be brought to bear via the advancements everyone brings. ... at least that’s the way it appears on the surface. But, over the last year since I joined, I am noticing an “undercurrent” that makes me curious: Is this a forum using Puppy Linux as a cover for some crazy social media experiment?

If Puppy LInux Forum is such a cover, I no longer want to be a part of such.

I am here for what the title seems to be purposed for; not for some government or crazy-winged group using the Puppy title for a subversive method to attract a following for crazy-wing rhetoric on topics having little to nothing to do with Puppy or LINUX or technology.

No, I don't want to be a moderator for a group that has such a ‘hidden’ mission and agenda. (In fact, I or anyone is not needed to moderate such, if the right decision is made; thus, I am irrelevant to this!)

And, as other members have shared here, I hope the forum finds a way to look for a sensible solution that benefits PUPPY LInux and removes the EXTRA vehicle that leads to socially pitting one member against another on topics that have no place in Puppy or technology. And then banning people, same as the social media sites do. And, in stepping back, that area of the forum does NOT seem to be supporting Puppy Linux at all.

I signed up for technology...NOT FOR SOCIAL MEDIA!

AGAIN, I am not BATMAN and I am NOT a part of any conspiracy group here in Puppyland. I am merely a Gotham City citizen.

And please, @rockedge dont take this personal. Make the decision that is best for the future direction of this technology known as Puppy Linux ... a Forum. Members are trying to help you see such.

Here's an idea that hasn't been proposed: If @Rockedge wants such, why not just create a 'SEPARATE social media site'. If its a money thing as the inhibitor: Hell, I'll contribute to its cost just to remove the crazy stuff here in this forum.

I dont mind doing things that is beneficial and helpful.

[joet12345]

don't weedle out of it now. You accused me and laid fault on me directly. Why don't you become a moderator and put your time into it? I'll make you one now if you'd like.

Make me a moderator?

[backi]

Joet12345 wrote:

Make me a moderator?

This was the slickest/coolest Comment ever.
10 Points from 10.

Hey man.......you really have some Kind a "Style"........it really turns me on...........
You really made my day.

Sorry ......can`t stop laughing.

No Joe.....not as a Moderator..........this is somehow way to cheap....for a Guy like you.....

Joet for Nobel Peace Prize .......if not for this..... then for next President!

B.t.W:
Since i have a soft Spot/Heart for Outlaws........
In Case you will be banned...........i am really going to miss you somehow.
(Not really kidding.)

[backi]

Clarity wrote:
Excerpt:

This forum seems to be a forum FOR Puppy Linux with technology that can be brought to bear via the advancements everyone brings. ... at least that’s the way it appears on the surface. But, over the last year since I joined, I am noticing an “undercurrent” that makes me curious: Is this a forum using Puppy Linux as a cover for some crazy social media experiment?

If Puppy LInux Forum is such a cover, I no longer want to be a part of such.

I am here for what the title seems to be purposed for; not for some government or crazy-winged group using the Puppy title for a subversive method to attract a following for crazy-wing rhetoric on topics having little to nothing to do with Puppy or LINUX or technology.

Why instigating/spreading unnecessary "Conspiracy Theories"?

Your "Accusations" makes it sound .....as if Puppy Linux Forum is some kind of conspiratorial Meeting Place for Future "Terrorists".

My Goodness......does your Government putting some "Drugs" into the Drinking Water.......or what.....sounds somehow paranoid.....
Or are you even working for the "Government"?.......which means anyway becoming/being paranoid .....sooner or later.

What the Hell is going on here.......has almost everybody completely lost his Mind...... .or what......and his Sense for Humor too .....if they ever had any (Humor)?

Clarity wrote:

I signed up for technology...NOT FOR SOCIAL MEDIA!

Sounds just a bit like this quote from Andy Warhol:

I WANT TO BE A MACHINE
EVERYBODY SHOULD BE A MACHINE

And this is a quote from backi:

I DON`t WANT TO BE A MACHINE.
NOBODY SHOULD BE A MACHINE

Best Wishes and stay healthy Mate.......and have some Fun!