(Bionic) Puppy For Sale

[Chelsea80]

Hello all,

Is it legal to sell open source software as per this site?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw= ... 67d7da7e09

I was under the impression that Puppy Linux comes under the heading 'Free' which is the opposite of 'For Sale'.

I am not up to date on the licence laws, but if someone sells something that is free that contravenes some sort of law, even if it's the moral one.

The other point is that the originator and maintainer give us a dam good OS and expect nothing in return other than grateful thanks.

I will not pay for any replies that may be included in this post.

Best regards

Chelsea80

[Wiz57]

My guess would be if you asked the sellers, they would say the price is for the CD/DVD, USB Drive, SD card etc
that it is loaded on...unscrupulous indeed...might inform eBay, though it probably won't do any good.
Wiz

[CaptGeorge]

This is an old scam...been around for years!

[sonny]

Not everyone has a CD/DVD writer or knows how to flash an image to USB media, so that's what these sellers are offering (= convenience similar to doordash's, etc).
However, they probably can't do "pay to download" Puppy's vanilla ISO or IMG files.

[bigpup]

It is normal and generally agreed to allow to charge a small price, to cover the cost of the media Puppy is provided on.
Also, A very small amount, for setting up the install, on it, and the cost of getting it to you.

However, some of those items look way over priced!

Does the GPL allow me to charge a fee for downloading the program from my distribution site? (#DoesTheGPLAllowDownloadFee)

FAQ for GPL Licenses
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en ... AllowMoney

Yes. You can charge any fee you wish for distributing a copy of the program. Under GPLv2, if you distribute binaries by download, you must provide “equivalent access” to download the source—therefore, the fee to download source may not be greater than the fee to download the binary. If the binaries being distributed are licensed under the GPLv3, then you must offer equivalent access to the source code in the same way through the same place at no further charge.

Does the GPL allow me to require that anyone who receives the software must pay me a fee and/or notify me? (#DoesTheGPLAllowRequireFee)

No. In fact, a requirement like that would make the program nonfree. If people have to pay when they get a copy of a program, or if they have to notify anyone in particular, then the program is not free. See the definition of free software.

The GPL is a free software license, and therefore it permits people to use and even redistribute the software without being required to pay anyone a fee for doing so.

You can charge people a fee to get a copy from you. You can't require people to pay you when they get a copy from someone else.
If I distribute GPLed software for a fee, am I required to also make it available to the public without a charge? (#DoesTheGPLRequireAvailabilityToPublic)

No. However, if someone pays your fee and gets a copy, the GPL gives them the freedom to release it to the public, with or without a fee. For example, someone could pay your fee, and then put her copy on a web site for the general public.

[sonny]

It's the "value" that the sellers added on top of the "free" item that buyers choose to pay or not to pay. So, as long as the added value is there and worth paying for, why not?
We can never say that food delivery service is a scam.
As for me, if Puppy could help others pay the bill! Hallelujah!
https://www.linuxliteos.com/shop.html

[CaptGeorge]

This is an old scam...been around for years!

You're right! Maybe I should have used ruse, ploy, or scheme instead of scam. My point is that this way of "selling" free software (usually at excessive prices) has been widely used ever since 5 1/4" floppies were available.

[sonny]

It's just people exercising their freedom ...
They're free to offer or sell something and we're free to buy or not to buy their thing.

In fact, bottled water (water is free!), cable TV (paid but still has commercials), ticketmaster (overpriced), etc are also "scams", ain't they?
As long as there's no deception, no pressure, no force, etc ... it ain't no scam.
That's my 2c.

[CaptGeorge]

It's just people exercising their freedom ...
They're free to offer or sell something and we're free to buy or not to buy their thing.

In fact, bottled water (water is free!), cable TV (paid but still has commercials), ticketmaster (overpriced), etc are also "scams", ain't they?
As long as there's no deception, no pressure, no force, etc ... it ain't no scam.
That's my 2c.

Sonny, I think we agree in this area. I drink tap water, but I still have to pay my water bill. I cut cable many years ago as soon as I found Channel Master selling OTA DVR's. (My wife's only requirement.) I only pay for internet. I also don't spend any money supporting ticketmaster, etc. I have no problem with people selling free software for reasonable prices as long as the buyers know they are getting "free" software. I guessing most Ebay buyers (especially Windows users) are not aware. So I call this type of sale a scheme or ruse if it's over priced. Buyer beware!

[sonny]

It's just people exercising their freedom ...
They're free to offer or sell something and we're free to buy or not to buy their thing.

In fact, bottled water (water is free!), cable TV (paid but still has commercials), ticketmaster (overpriced), etc are also "scams", ain't they?
As long as there's no deception, no pressure, no force, etc ... it ain't no scam.
That's my 2c.

Sonny, I think we agree in this area. I drink tap water, but I still have to pay my water bill. I cut cable many years ago as soon as I found Channel Master selling OTA DVR's. (My wife's only requirement.) I only pay for internet. I also don't spend any money supporting ticketmaster, etc. I have no problem with people selling free software for reasonable prices as long as the buyers know they are getting "free" software. I guessing most Ebay buyers (especially Windows users) are not aware. So I call this type of sale a scheme or ruse if it's over priced. Buyer beware!

Anything that poses as a threat to our freedom is scam.

Windows 10 is one of them:
- When you fresh install Windows 10 and your PC is wired to the internet, you can't complete the installation until you create an account or sign in with yours
- Edge can't never be uninstalled (Microsoft has 1001 excuses for that)
- During first updates, Microsoft installs "Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook (trial version)" by default
- Uninstalling is made so "annoying" by Microsoft: one uninstall for each module and one restart for each uninstall
- "No updates ... well ... no Windows!" policy
- Microsoft (in god mode): "Windows 10 spying cannot be stopped!"

ebay sellers offering distros on USB media is nothing compared to big corporate scams.
Try not to be distracted by their big deception ("freedoomed"), Captain.

[CaptGeorge]

I knew we were kindred souls!! Don't get me started on Windows. My last Windows OS was XP and only because some of my proprietary engineering software would only run on 98 or XP.

[sonny]

https://youtu.be/S46Fby3qOGg

[cthisbear]

You people are so yesterday whingeing about Windows 10.

Mate get with the dream..Win 11 is darkening the doors.
More beauty less stress right.

:::::::::::::

Never believe the MS crap.

How to Uninstall Edge Chromium When Windows 10 Won't Let You

https://lifehacker.com/how-to-uninstall ... 1844297854

:::::::::::;;

To make things easier I recommend you use the IObit uninstaller. Its free version is enough to remove
Microsoft Edge from your computer.

https://recommendcentral.com/tutorials/ ... edge-2021/

Plus many other hints

Chris.

[sonny]

You people are so yesterday whingeing about Windows 10.

Mate get with the dream..Win 11 is darkening the doors.
More beauty less stress right.

:::::::::::::

Never believe the MS crap.

How to Uninstall Edge Chromium When Windows 10 Won't Let You

https://lifehacker.com/how-to-uninstall ... 1844297854

:::::::::::;;

To make things easier I recommend you use the IObit uninstaller. Its free version is enough to remove
Microsoft Edge from your computer.

https://recommendcentral.com/tutorials/ ... edge-2021/

Plus many other hints

Chris.

Hello Chris,

As far as I'm concerned ...

1. Uninstalling Edge Chromium is not a good idea. Its has some "after effects" or "dependency"-like issues in future updates
2. IObit is considered a "malware"

Cheers

[wiak]

Anything that poses as a threat to our freedom is scam.

Windows 10 is one of them

That's the key thing for me. I simply love all things Linux (which does not imply at all that any Linux distro is perfect or even better than everything Mac or Windows - in fact some of it isn't).

So open source availability is key to that pleasure and freedom (which does not imply that I like GPL - I don't - I prefer much more liberal software licenses, such as MIT, that allow commercial use - arguable of course, but I'm simply stating my own preferences based partially on the fact that I don't believe it is easy to make a living out of open-source development - possible for a few, but limited, and sometimes, alas, some commercial software can better, which is not surprising since experts are paid heavily to make it good if they can... amazing thing, really, is just how good open-source alternatives can be).

But re: Windows OS more generally (aside from that non-open-source pain of it):

In my past use and opinion:

Windows 98 was actually a very efficient and nice to use OS for its time. I did not find it slower or less attractive to use than Linux back in the day. Moreover, it is amazing to remember that Win 98 was available in 1998! Pretty good user interface for so long ago when you think about what Linux had to offer back then - many years before even that first pretty-rudimentary Pup release (okay, so Mac user interface was a dream compared to any Microsoft offering - except you had to do everything the 'Mac way' but very logical and user-friendly anyway).

Windows XP was also a great operating system in practice, I found, and my old laptops generally ran fine and fast and efficiently with that too, and that's way back around year 2000 (Puppy still not even around then, and today's usual JWM/Rox Puppy interface remains no better really than what Win XP provides). Issue, more and more, was not speed or install size but the increasing nuisance of having to install fortresses of anti-virus software and maintain them via continuous update. Even Win 7 was a great OS, and that was released about 12 years ago!... but slowly that 'continuous forced updates issue' began to become more intrusive and painful.

So for me, Win 10 is simply intolerable to me because of forced OS upgrades and so on. I don't mind voluntary updates (which I regularly choose to do with my Linux system anyway) - in fact it is important, for overall system security, even when using Linux, and open-source apps are indeed continually being developed and improved and as long as they don't start slowing down my system I prefer the newest versions I can run). Anyway, by the time Win10 came out with its updates and subscription models I had no interest in using anything outside of what I can find in Linux software world anyway - that will certainly not be the case for everyone, and it is also a fact that some MS-Windows available software remains better overall than Linux available alternatives, but not for my own limited needs thus far anyway.

If you want to make a Puppy release that is worth paying for, then you would really need to provide added value big time to justify that. One way is to provide specially pre-configured apps for a specialised purpose - where the configuration work required goes way beyond the simple installation of the app and its dependencies. Alternatively, if a major redesign was done to the for-sale Puppy user interface, such that it became a 'dream' for even the least technical person to use, then you would be on to a winner. Same can be said for all Linux distros of course - greatly improve the user interface/functionality without slowing down the machine (through eating up too much RAM or CPU for example) and the huge amount of additonal work involved in such improvement would be worth paying for. Android world is already a bit like that - some pretty great Android apps available for free, but there is pain involved in the form of forced advertising - for a few dollars only it is generally possible to get even more functional versions of Android apps AND without that advertising drawback. Having said that, my own Android phone and tablet is not my go-to for running general apps, so I generally just stick with the free Android apps (though use F-droid stuff when I can find something good enough there).

Is Linux open-source model a good thing overall? I don't know. People who work in any domain professionally deserve financial reward - you can't feed your kids via praise and thankyou(s) alone. Microsoft and similar employ thousands of people - that is their livelihood. I find nothing immoral about commercial software.

[sonny]

Providing more choices/options is a way of preserving freedom.
Letting people make their own choices is a way of exercising freedom.

Between Apple and Microsoft is ... while the first aims at our pockets, the latter at our life.
I simply can't afford to trust Microsoft, the management and all that NDA bs.

At the end of the day, you can't force anyone to love you or lend you money.

[wiak]

Wikipedia (what's not to like for OS's released way back in 1995/1998)...:

[begin of quote(s) (yeah I don't want a forum quote box on this occasion... it somehow hurts my eyes]
Win95

Windows 95 introduced numerous functions and features that were featured in later Windows versions, such as the taskbar, notification area, and the "Start" button.
...
Prior to Windows 95's official release, users in the United States and United Kingdom had an opportunity to participate in the Windows 95 Preview Program.[9] For US$19.95/£19.95, users would receive several 3.5-inch floppy disks that would be used to install Windows 95
...

Win 98

Web integration and shell enhancements
The first release of Windows 98 included Internet Explorer 4.01. This was updated to 5.0 in the Second Edition. Besides Internet Explorer, many other Internet companion applications are included such as Outlook Express,[19] Windows Address Book, FrontPage Express,[20] Microsoft Chat, Personal Web Server and a Web Publishing Wizard, and NetShow.[21] NetMeeting allows multiple users to hold conference calls and work with each other on a document.[22]

The Windows 98 shell is web-integrated;[23] it contains deskbands, Active Desktop, Channels,[24] ability to minimize foreground windows by clicking their button on the taskbar,[25] single-click launching, Back and Forward navigation buttons,[26] favorites, and address bar in Windows Explorer, image thumbnails,[27] folder infotips and Web view in folders, and folder customization through HTML-based templates. The taskbar supports customizable toolbars designed to speed up access to the Web or the user's desktop; these toolbars include an Address Bar and Quick Launch. With the Address Bar, the user accesses the Web by typing in a URL, and Quick Launch contains shortcuts or buttons that perform system functions such as switching between windows and the desktop with the Show Desktop button.[28] Another feature of this new shell is that dialog boxes[clarification needed] show up in the Alt-Tab sequence.
...
Support for WDM audio enables digital mixing, routing and processing of simultaneous audio streams and kernel streaming with high quality sample rate conversion on Windows 98.
...

Win XP

Upon its release, Windows XP received critical acclaim, with critics noting increased performance and stability (especially in comparison to Windows Me), a more intuitive user interface, improved hardware support, and expanded multimedia capabilities. However, some industry reviewers were concerned by the new licensing model and product activation system.
[end of quotes]
==========================================

First Puppy distros releases around 2005 I think (?) - not multi-user capable, but fun to use for sure, and being usually between 50MB and 100MB download size at the time, possible to download even via dialup connection (overnight at least...!).

So here we are in 2021 and only now has Puppy accepted using the likes of pulseaudio!... and some seem to imagine that a 300MB install size remains important (and some remain concerned it is no longer 'under 100MB', a good example of "how to hold back Puppy Linux development for meaningless reasons").

Would be nice to see Puppy continuing as a viable distro of choice for some in the future (since greater freedom of choice is indeed a good thing for the community I feel), but creativity requires an open mind, willingness to change, and willingness to accept and encourage alternative forum-member creative distro designs; alas that some old-timer attitudes do not bode well for that Puppy future in terms of a narrow-minded development perspective:

Despite being open-source, an attitude of guarded jealousy, protectionism, fear of perceived competition, legacy development control mechanisms (despite a pretense that anyone can readily and freely contribute via woof-CE), self-assumed rights and nepotism involving their perceived 'old-timer friends', including no control over old gtkdialog apps pushed into woof-CE github by longtime old-timer woof-CE Puppy stewards, but reluctance to push/commit the newer work of others (who don't have the authority to do so themselves); and particularly:

A general lack of willingness to collaborate and acknowledge other creative distros discussed on the forum, but a no-conscience tendency to cherry-pick copy ideas without acknowledgment (whilst happiness to take credit and praise for the ideas of others). To me that is what Puppy Linux itself, in community terms, has really become (shame on some of its developers). But that's just how I personally find it, and I don't need it anyway. Why complain about Microsoft, when it can't keep it's own house and ethics in order?

Of course not all Puppy users are like that, but not all Puppy users have much say in practice about how Puppy developers act and relate (inevitably since not everyone has sufficient Linux expertise to even recognise what goes on) and a particularly nasty few users (who are not developers) don't care and encourage everything Puppy regardless of ethics and community spirit. Such individuals need weeded out and thrown out of the community to allow it to grow in harmony, which would always be a good thing in the end. Of course it is up to the community as a whole to notice and agree such steps, and particularly rockedge since it is ultimately his forum to harmonise via just control.

Certainly, I believe in the importance of 'freedom of speech' but that is a very twisted term as modern political situation has well demonstrated. The kind of 'control' I am talking about is not control to take away freedom, but simply stopping those who purposively try to silence the existence of others (and in particular other non-Puppy distros that forum members develop). Such individuals purposively create hurt and ill-feelings and strive for the opposite of community harmony. If my statement makes me that individual then have me banned, but I do not myself oppose collaboration whatsoever and I applaud all creative works and am guarding nothing against anyone else's activities.

Before anything is sold, my feeling is therefore that it is important to consult respectfully with its core developers and to never forget to acknowledge the effort they have put into their contributions. So 'freedom' starts here - in the way the forum operates itself as a community - and the respect they give or do not give to each other. Not sure about Puppy for Sale, but maybe Puppy, as a forum community, is being sold out by the non-collaborative and non-respectful behavior of some of Puppy Linux distro 'team' and proponents. Decide for yourselves, but 'anti-non-PuppyOS' discourse has negative consequencies in terms of actual contributions to the community and forum harmony on the whole.

[sonny]

Hello wiak,

Not sure if you're also referring to my other topic:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3377

"ghostUSB" (my version/vision of "Puppy in a USB" or "Puppy for Sale") is described liberally here:

1. Serves a niche market (as a sidekick to Windows and runs in a removable media that always stays "plugged in"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niche_market

2. It'll always be positioned that way. It'll never replace Windows. Ever.

3. So (as described in that post), it delivers unique purposes the main OS doesn't:

> If WIndows is your home, ghostUS is your safe house or a hotel room (no decorating/no cleaning/no maintenance necessary; check in and check out anytime)
> If Windows is your car, ghostUSB is your bike (just get on, no hassles, no worries: not to mention that your car's model is the most stolen one in town)
> If WIndows gives you a world of apps (and ten worlds of chances to mess up), ghostUSB comes with enough mainstream apps ... preinstalled, preconfigured
> This is rated M for mature: If Windows is your big fat and old spouse, ghostUSB is your hot standby lover and young like a puppy: It will never beg to sleep in your "bedroom", to live in your "house", and to be your "new spouse" by saying "INSTALL ME!" like all other "pipedreaming" lovers ("distros") ...

Please don't "over sophisticate", this "Puppy in a USB" or "Puppy for Sale" is a simple solution in a "universal small boat" (USB).
It's not and will never be your new Windows ANYWAY. Just your backup chauffeur, exclusively yours. It just takes you whenever and whenever you want.
Your backup chauffeur is "deaf" and "mute". It is maintenance free.
And, sophistication free.

[wiak]

Hello wiak,

Not sure if you're also referring to my other topic:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3377

"ghostUSB" (my version/vision of "Puppy in a USB" or "Puppy for Sale") is described liberally here:

No, I've read that ghostUSB thread. I find nothing wrong with the idea, so no, I wasn't referring to it at all - good luck with the endeavour.

Yes, I see why you might have thought I was referring to it, but perfectly okay I think to sell a piece of hardware (usb) with software on it. You need to cover the media costs as well as the work installing the open-source distro. Yes, I think acknowledging where the distro comes from is important, but I think that's stated anyway. No, my concern is with developers cherry-picking ideas and then claiming them as their own without acknowledgment. I'm not sure why they don't acknowledge - I can only guess they are embarrassed they would have to admit idea came from other distros or whatever. Actually, I can't remember why my post ended up in this post about 'Sales' - I think i may have been in response to someone's post higher up, but I can't now remember...

[sonny]

Hello wiak,

Not sure if you're also referring to my other topic:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3377

"ghostUSB" (my version/vision of "Puppy in a USB" or "Puppy for Sale") is described liberally here:

No, I've read that ghostUSB thread. I find nothing wrong with the idea, so no, I wasn't referring to it at all - good luck with the endeavour.

Yes, I see why you might have thought I was referring to it, but perfectly okay I think to sell a piece of hardware (usb) with software on it. You need to cover the media costs as well as the work installing the open-source distro. Yes, I think acknowledging where the distro comes from is important, but I think that's stated anyway. No, my concern is with developers cherry-picking ideas and then claiming them as their own without acknowledgment. I'm not sure why they don't acknowledge - I can only guess they are embarrassed they would have to admit idea came from other distros or whatever. Actually, I can't remember why my post ended up in this post about 'Sales' - I think i may have been in response to someone's post higher up, but I can't now remember...

Actually ... I breathed the idea with the kennels in mind:

1. Explore our options (with the help from an IP attorney we're hiring or whatnot)
2. If checked, secure a utility patent for "Puppy in a USB" (like amazon did with 1-click)
3. Go find an investor (#2 is mandatory)

*I'm exercising "freedom to dream"

[Phoenix]

Not everyone has a CD/DVD writer or knows how to flash an image to USB media, so that's what these sellers are offering (= convenience similar to doordash's, etc).
However, they probably can't do "pay to download" Puppy's vanilla ISO or IMG files.

If so, I will introduce LICK.