Projects vs Derivatives

[Clarity]

Should "Projects" be PUPs/DOGs generated by a distro wizard such as WoofCE or something, WHILE "Derivatives" are mere remasters of some Project PUP/DOG? Derivatives could also include some Linuxes crafted to look like a PUP where it was cobbled together using some non-traditional Puppy Linux method(s).

Would this make clear the differences for understanding of those forum areas, going forward?

Hope this is helpful understanding.

[taersh]

Ok, this is how I do understand the difference between "Projects" and "Derivatives".

Puppy Derivatives in short is modified Puppies which are based on an official Puppy and/or created from such official Puppy. This could be remastered versions (by remaster script) or even manually edited/modified Puppies. Probably also own WoofCE builds differently created from official Puppies - like e.g. my ArtStudio64 which was built using WoofCE and the BionicPup64 build recipe/files.

Puppy Projects in short is of course each new Puppy created the first time using WoofCE or created in a different way (e.g. from scratch). But this isn't necessarily dependent on a Puppy itself or in a whole. Something like my developments of T.O.P.L.E.S.S. and/or N.E.M.E.S.I.S. would be also Puppy Projects, as they are dependent on Puppy and related to a Puppy.

[Trobin]

So, let me see if I understand this. Speak3pup was remastered from either a modified puppy or full Puppy 2.1.7. Can't remember which. That would, according to the above definitions make it a derivative. I don't know if any one actually uses it, but thought I'd take the time to update it to a more modern Puppy. So, it would still b e a derivative, even though I think of it as a project? Where would a sfs file be?

[taersh]

Speak3Pup?

Yes, derivative. Derivative derives from an original. That's the whole point.
It might be a project of yours, but the result is still a derivative.

SFS file?

Like a .pet or probably even scripts or archives. Somewhere in the "Additional Software" section of the forum. Dependent what kind of program it includes/contains e.g. Multimedia, Graphics, Utilities etc.pp.

Edit:

My T.O.P.L.E.S.S. and N.E.M.E.S.I.S. projects aren't programs like just GIMP, Geany or Qtractor etc. These developments manipulating a plain Puppy in a way that one can boot always into a fresh and clean Puppy, but with the benefits of persistent settings without to use a save file and/or save folder.

[darry19662018]

I am with Taersh the way the forum is now is brilliant and easy to understand - The Dogs are separate from Puppy Projects which as has been said is Puppy development like a new woof build system, cutting edge stuff that contributes to new Puppy development eg. pkg, Woofy.

Puppy Derivatives are modified from Puppy eg. Fluppy, MacPup etc......

Can't see any confusion there

[Trobin]

As far as it goes, I agree. It's easy to understand, and straight forward.

But, if I updated Speak3pup, by upgrading the linux base, it would still operate differently than it's parent distro. For one thing, the windowing system would not be run, and tts and edbrowse loaded instead, and would rely on command line programs. Essentially, I would altering Puppy Linux to be a command line Puppy with Text to Speech added.

If I were to make it into a SFS file, that could be added to any distro, I don't see how it would fit into the "additional Software" section, as I would be adding programs that fit across the categories, rather than just one.

I don't see where it would fit.

[bigpup]

Trobin,

Maybe it would go into Advanced Topics->Derivatives->Specialized section.

What you describe is that type of Puppy OS.

General idea of this section talked about here:
https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?p=844#p844

[wiak]

So, let me see if I understand this. Speak3pup was remastered from either a modified puppy or full Puppy 2.1.7. Can't remember which. That would, according to the above definitions make it a derivative. I don't know if any one actually uses it, but thought I'd take the time to update it to a more modern Puppy. So, it would still b e a derivative, even though I think of it as a project? Where would a sfs file be?

Certainly, in one way or another everything is a project... but that definition alone wouldn't help anyone.

I think the creation of category "Mainline Puppy Linux Distros" as being for the 'official' Puppy releases was a good idea of rockedge.

Outside of that area I don't think definitions/labels can ever be completely black and white. Someone who takes a Mainline release and modifies it to use say a different desktop manager or different look or different preferred general apps and then remastering that is primarily creating a simple "Derivative" of the Mainline version I would say.

I suppose Speak3pup 'might' be regarded as a 'Specialized' Puppy derivative but I don't myself understand what that 'Specialized' category is thus far supposed to be for since nobody seems to be currently using it... How I think it should be used I detail below.

Personally, I don't feel "Puppy Projects" should include any distros. It used to on the old forum because there was no place allocated to put, for example, the DebianDogs (which are Debian Live derivatives), but now these distros that are not derived per se from Puppy system have their own space so that problem is resolved. Adopting a look-and-feel of Puppy does not make a distro a 'derivative' of Puppy (which itself may look like some other distros - that defines nothing much and is often just a matter of which Window Manager or Browser adopted...).

"Puppy Projects" seems to me to be a particularly useful place to store some specialized system addon (rather than an actual distro). Rockedge's build Zoneminder script for Puppy is a good example IMO since Zoneminder is a sophisticated surveillance system rather than just being an 'application' or 'utility'. If, on the other hand, rockedge produced an iso with that pre-configured on some Puppy distro, I'd personally say that Derivative -> Specialized would be the best place for it's thread.

Speak3Pup is more about the 'system' for blind/visually impaired that it contains than the underlying Puppy remaster it is built upon, but since it is provided in the form of a remastered distro (I think?) I feel, once again Derivatives -> Specialized would be the best place for it. If the components that make up the blind/visually-impaired 'system' components were provided as a separate pet or sfs or similar addon, then I feel that should be put under Puppy Projects, since the more general purpose project part of it has been separated out.

Certainly, I'm just giving my own opinion. This is not the way these subforums are currently being used. For example, Studio 13.37 has been put under Puppy Derivatives, but not under Specialized subforum of that (which is where I think it should go...). Also both TazPup and CorePup have threads stuck into Puppy Projects, which is a nonsense in my opinion. Indeed CorePup isn't a Puppy Derivative at all (pity about the name really) and its thread should IMO be put in non-Puppy DogHouse area (alongside dCoreDog). TazPup, on the otherhand, is neither a Mainline Pup nor a typical Derivative, but it is a hybrid (it uses Puppy to boot, so does fit as a derivative in that sense, but SliTaz for its package manager and main feel), but it is specialized in that it mainly uses SliTaz system (with quite a bit of Pup look and feel overall too) so again I think that one should have its thread under Puppy Derivatives -> Specialized. Why is no-one using 'Puppy Derivatives -> Specialized'???

Once there is majority consensus on this, some existing threads in other words need moved (some into Puppy Derivatives -> Specialized).

wiak

[bigpup]

"Puppy Projects" to me is a place to put any Puppy specific development work in progress.
New Puppy version development, new ways for Puppy to work, new programs to be in Puppy, etc....
Stuff that is being developed to become part of official Puppy.
Example:
Fossapup64 9.xxx is in development to probably be Puppy v9.
The next official Puppy version, maybe!
Until it is release status, it is a Puppy project.
When it is finished and submitted for official Puppy version status.
If decided to be the Puppy v9.
It should become a new sub section in Mainline Puppy Linux Distros

[wiak]

"Puppy Projects" to me is a place to put any Puppy specific development work in progress.
New Puppy version development, new ways for Puppy to work, new programs to be in Puppy, etc....
Stuff that is being developed to become part of official Puppy.

Personally I think there should be a Puppy Development subforum for that somewhere though mainly because Puppy Projects is definitely needed for some types of addon system work and we really shouldn't encourage distros to put their threads in there since that will just confuse others and result in it once again becoming yet another distro thread area. Exception could be as below Puppy Projects -> woof-CE (EDIT: though personally I'd rename that subforum to Puppy Development and possibly move that to somewhere else such as a subforum of Mainline Puppy Linux Distros)

New official or any woof-CE Pup development can already be handled under woof-CE; it would be particularly useful for future Puppy development if such development was documented (rather than just presented as a woof-CE creation that can be used) or as an iso to be downloaded - i.e. the build recipes documented and discussed during development - rather than just leaving users pretty much ignorant aside from being able to run woof-CE scripts without needing to have any clue as to how the build has been put together (and woof-CE scripts are huge so too much to study all the scripts for most people but nothing like so difficult to have the main specific distro build config parts documented). Of course, no-one can force the build recipe creators to document details - and such documentation certainly could add to the creator work load. Anyway, main point is that if it a woof-CE creation then that is a good Project subforum area to document such development work in, and that subforum (Puppy Projects -> woof-CE) already exists (and very few are involved in woof-CE development itself and use GitHub discussions for that purpose).

I'd also suggest that far more forum members are likely to work on Puppy Derivatives (remasters) than on original woof-CE development builds, but many are also likely to work on more general purpose Puppy Projects (as opposed to new distro developments). Remasters belong under Puppy Derivatives and not ever in Puppy Projects.

[bigpup]

We the users of this forum control where stuff is posted.
Have fun, getting everyone to think the same way, as to what is posted, where
Never going to happen!

Rockedge, seems to be a little more hands on, to running this forum.
Time will tell, if he/she wants to constantly deal with moving posts, to a more correct location, in the forum.

All these different sections and sub sections, are never going to be more than some kind of loose control over where to post stuff.

[Clarity]

Looks like the forum is going to gravitate to being focused on it Prime directive: Namely PUPPY-DOG Linux projects, derivatives, apps that run in Linux, and surrounding technologies important to use of what is done here to accomplish useful efforts in life.

I am ever hopeful it maintains a strong element to keep all membership focused on its technology.

There are many areas in the internet which focus of their own areas of interest. As well as there are too many social areas elsewhere for other engagement.

I look forward to all efforts, here, focused on the Prime directive. PUPPY & DOG...our future!

There is so much more in technology that PUPs & DOGs can help us with in activities in our home needs, for cameras, audio , videos, 3D prints, air quality testing, ...

PUPPY & DOG for uses to help us!

[wiak]

All these different sections and sub sections, are never going to be more than some kind of loose control over where to post stuff.

Well I could move stuff, but I would only help do so once rockedge decides and advises exactly where he prefers things to be. Certainly I have my own opinions and it pains me that some distros are being posted in Puppy Projects when there are already alternative better defined areas and mixing distros with general projects is a bit of a mess, but I recognise that my opinions may not be shared by everyone like alone always the majority and accept whatever rockedge decides.

Rockedge did ask what I thought about idea of creating a specific "development" section and at the time I erroneously thought it wasn't required (since most developments take place after publication announcement of most distros), but now that woof-CE is a subforum anyway, and as pointed out new Pups may sometimes need development versions prior to ending up published under Mainline I realise a Puppy Development section would in fact be appropriate. I therefore now feel a Puppy Development subforum would sit nicely under Mainline (since I'm talking about Mainline Pup development here) - it really does not justify being more than a subforum though - developments in that pre-official, woof-CE, experimental Puppy distro sense are relatively rare occurrences and most such work is, as I said, undertaken via github and discussions appropriately occur there and not in any general forum thread.

Once the forum reaches some kind of stability in structure and subforum purpose definition it is actually a trivial effort to move any threads being placed all-over-the-place... But in the meantime, the structure remains in a little state of flux so there is no hurry for any consensus and at the end of the day it is more a matter of what rockedge prefers IMO than any consensus anyway.

It has certainly already been demonstrated that users/members of the forum can put up with anything in terms of lack of structure and organisation, since the old forum became a jungle and particularly the Puppy Projects area where distros (Pups and Dogs) jossled for space and public exposure. No need for that situation to re-occur now though, and I hope that never happens, which I'm sure it won't since rockedge is no doubt at all keeping an eye on forum use and appropriateness or otherwise of categories and where threads are being posted.

But if it was me... yes, without a blink of the eye I'd first of all move CorePup into a subforum next to dCoreDog in DogHouse - it is no more a Puppy derivative than any dog... And TazPup I'd move into Puppy Derivatives -> Specialized since I accept that it is partly derived from Puppy official. And the other special purpose derivatives, such as SpeakPup and Puppy Studio and similar special purpose Pups would also go into Puppy Derivative -> Specialized. Five minutes to move them - no effort at all and thereafter we'd all know where they appropriately are, which would help guide future distro creation placement.

[taersh]

All these different sections and sub sections, are never going to be more than some kind of loose control over where to post stuff.

Hehe, I don't think so.

The loose of control already had happened on the murga-forum. I recall lots of new members often somehow complaining about and having problems to find stuff by the mess in murga-forum.

[bigpup]

I repeat.
We the users of the forum, control what gets posted, where!
We can post anything, anyplace we want to.

A lot of the mess in the old forum, was because people posted in wrong place and no forum administrator, did anything about it.

The old forum did have a development section.
But it got to the point, nobody was posting in it.
They were using the projects section.

I totally understand, the need for some order and sectioning, of the forum.
I and pizzagood, had to drag the old forum, kicking and screaming, into making subsections, for the Additional Software section.
Before making subsections.
Stuff was just a mess of different programs, completely mixed up.

Good to see rockedge is willing to give this forum, some logical layout.

Wonder at what point, there is going to be to many subsections

[taersh]

I repeat.
We the users of the forum, control what gets posted, where!
We can post anything, anyplace we want to.

Or, in other words: We the users of the forum can do a any mess, anyplace we want to!

Since we've got a new forum started from scratch. Why not trying to get rid off some of these strange "general rules" to post anything, anyplace we want to. Posting anything, anyplace I want to will create lots of unnecessary work to move posts/topics by forum admins. I also see some responsibility at us, the users of the forum to think once or even twice before posting anything anywhere.

[mikeslr]

We can spend a lot of our effort trying to keep things organized. There will always be disagreements because no matter what sections there will be misinterpretations and overlaps; and somethings missing because we hadn't yet thought of them or their current importance.

The best way to enforce organization is to instill it on new members. Insist that improperly placed queries not be answered. That's also a great way to loose new members.

More important than rigid organizations is a good search engine.