The future of the forum and about the structure

[fredx181]

Anyone notice any differences?

@dimkr compact enough?
Screenshot(76).jpg

Can I ask if I am now supposed to be able to see the forum in the form shown on the jpg in this post. (As the quote doesn't show the image I've attached it below). I've tried using both a laptop and phone to render the forum and neither show this format. This also involves using different browsers.

Regards,

Ken.

The default is expanded AFAIK, if you collapse all (or some) it will be remembered (well, for me, not for you?)

2025-01-14_12-03-42.jpg (58.53 KiB) Viewed 586 times

[williwaw]

Anyone notice any differences?

@dimkr compact enough?
Screenshot(76).jpg

Can I ask if I am now supposed to be able to see the forum in the form shown on the jpg in this post. (As the quote doesn't show the image I've attached it below). I've tried using both a laptop and phone to render the forum and neither show this format. This also involves using different browsers.

Regards,

Ken.

keniv, the jpg showing unexpanded headers as the default view for visitors or the not logged in is a suggestion and a work in progress.

some of the subforums under these headings have been shuffled around

[keniv]

@fredx181

The default is expanded AFAIK, if you collapse all (or some) it will be remembered (well, for me, not for you?)

I cannot see a way to collapse the page that is displayed on opening the forum whether I am logged in or not. I'm not sure why it should work for you but not for me.

@williwaw

the jpg showing unexpanded headers as the default view for visitors or the not logged in

As said above I cannot see this whether logged in or not.
Is it envisaged that ordinary members of the forum should be able to make comments? If so then perhaps I should say that I find the image in the post blurred and unclear on both my phone and my laptop and for me at least difficult to see.

Regards,

Ken.

[mikewalsh]

@rockedge :-

Just an observation, Erik.....if I may? On a serious note now, if we're going to perform this re-organization/re-categorization - and do so 'properly' - can I just draw your attention to the following:-

Seems a bit odd that while Fossapup64 is now in the 'Legacy' section (and yes; I understand why), the considerably older DPup-Stretch - a rock-solid, all-time 'classic' though it is, and one of radky's masterpieces - remains in the "current" Puppy Linux Distros section. Is this simply an oversight, or was there some underlying logic to this choice?

Not wishing to "upset the apple cart" here. Just curious, that's all!

Mike.

[rockedge]

@mikewalsh I was waiting to collaborate with @peebee on placing these correctly. Should be different now and along the lines you've described.

[fredx181]

@keniv
Clicking the 'minus' icon will collapse and the 'plus' icon expand.

2025-01-14_14-33-14.gif (423.15 KiB) Viewed 520 times

[wiak]

... and fredx181 is fine with anything - nice guy, no fighting for equality.

Not that I'm fine with anything, but indeed I'm not "fighting" for equality.
I can't blame people (who you sometimes call "puppy stewards") having interest only in Puppy, that's what they registered for.
History (or call it perhaps "nostalgia") plays a big part in it IMO, after all this forum is a continuation of the old murga-linux forum.
edit: So I think it's "natural" that the focus is more on Puppy than on others.

Well, at least now it's clear that everything under "Puppy linux distributions" is supposed to be about Puppy only, less confusing I think.
If developers from one of the "Other Distributions" want to have subcategories like "House Training" or e.g. "How-to", they can request that.
(I still think, btw, that "Other Distributions" would be a more appropriate name, as the name of the forum is "Puppy Linux Forum" and that's not gonna change AFAIK).

That's all very well Fred that you personally don't care if DebianDogs get same forum provision as Puppy or not. The distributions are individuals with different names and designs. They exist and are, some more than others..., actively 'alive' in that sense. It doesn't matter whether one or more of their designers don't care about their forum presence in terms of equality of exposure to the world. Likewise, it is not relevant if a human individual has the opinion that equality for individual humans in the world is of no importance to them. This is about logical fair structure for every individual type of distro who rely on this forum and contribute to its success.

This forum in fact began with almost the same rockedge now displays except KL didn't per se exist, but instead FirstRib distros (WDL weedog as they were) sat alongside the DDs and EasyOS and FatDog. Puppy again occupied top level spot and the likes of Puppy House Training also sat on the top level as it still does such that any posts made there nicely always showed up to new forum visitors on front page. Dog House, FatDog, KL remain only on second level subforums, and making for example KL House Training as a section would be way down on subsubforum level. That makes a huge difference to front page visibility of new posts.

That is tolerable to you, I get that, but it is not tolerable to me for the distros I create or put major time and effort into. If this forum is unable to provide equity of provision for FirstRib-based distributions that needs to be categorically stated since that is logically an unsatisfactory situation in terms of distro promotion and support. Whether any human cares about fair structure or not is actually irrelevant - this is about structure and its effect on the marketing and exposure of distros to forum visitors, and thus about eventual exposure to the outside forum world.

All distros, logically, and fairly, need equal forum scope provision. The fact the old forum was originally made for Puppy Linux as a puppy subdomain of murgalinux domain doesn't alter the fact that the content of the forum evolved such that several distros use it (for long years now). The forum structure unfortunately has not kept up with that evolution and it should do so, despite the legacy forum title.

[dimkr]

@dimkr would you mind making a text version (like Fred's) and posting it here so I can see it?

Something like

Code: Select all

┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐
│ Puppy Linux Discussion Forum                                             │
│                                                                          │
│ ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │
│ │ Distributions                                                        │ │  
│ │ ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ │
│ │ │ Puppy Linux                                                      │ │ │
│ │ │   Subforums: * BookwormPup * F96-CE * NoblePup * SPups * VoidPup │ │ │ 
│ │ └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ │ │
│ │ ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ │   (all currently maintained distros)
│ │ │ Dog House                                                        │ │ │
│ │ │   Subforums: * DebianDogs * UbuntuDogs * Debian-Live Starter Kit │ │ │
│ │ └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ │ │
│ │ ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ │
│ │ │ EasyOS                                                           │ │ │
│ │ │   Subforums: * DebianDogs * UbuntuDogs * Debian-Live Starter Kit │ │ │
│ │ └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ │ │
│ │ [...]                                                                │ │  
│ └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ │
│                                                                          │
│ ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │
│ │ Topics                                                               │ │  
│ │ ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ │
│ │ │ Packages                                                         │ │ │
│ │ │   Subforums: * Puppy Linux * DebianDog [...]                     │ │ │ 
│ │ └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ │ │
│ │ ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ │
│ │ │ Hardware                                                         │ │ │
│ │ │   Subforums: * Old * New * [...]                                 │ │ │
│ │ └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ │ │   (topics that are not distro-specific)
│ │ ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ │
│ │ │ Development                                                      │ │ │
│ │ │   Subforums: * Distro Development * Programming                  │ │ │ 
│ │ └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ │ │
│ │ ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ │
│ │ │ Off-Topic                                                        │ │ │
│ │ │   Subforums: * [...]                                             │ │ │ 
│ │ └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ │ │
│ │ [...]                                                                │ │  
│ └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ │
│                                                                          │
│ ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │
│ │ Legacy Distributions                                                 │ │  
│ │ ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ │
│ │ │ Puppy Linux                                                      │ │ │
│ │ │   Subforums: * Bionic * Xenial * [...]                           │ │ │   (all legacy distros)
│ │ └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ │ │
│ │ ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ │
│ │ │ Dog House                                                        │ │ │
│ │ │   Subforums: * BionicDog * BusterDog * [...]                     │ │ │
│ │ └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ │ │
│ │ [...]                                                                │ │  
│ └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ │
│                                                                          │
└──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

[rockedge]

This forum in fact began with almost the same rockedge now displays except KL didn't per se exist, but instead FirstRib distros (WDL weedog as they were) sat alongside the DDs and EasyOS and FatDog. Puppy again occupied top level spot and the likes of Puppy House Training also sat on the top level as it still does such that any posts made there nicely always showed up to new forum visitors on front page. Dog House, FatDog, KL remain only on second level subforums,

I don't understand. I am getting frustrated here attempting to get a single "I am beginning too like it" but not yet I guess. I have already almost completely broken the forum. Got locked out and giant and really bad database errors thrown at me by the server. Luckily I've seen it before because I completely broke the one-to-one test version of this forum as well and recovered. There is a limit to where I can go on the shared server and not so on my localhost server so we need to be careful.

What second level are you @wiak referring too? Kennel Linux and Friends are all on the first level. You are SEO savvy so you know where I'm coming from.

You must also take into account SEO problems of millions of Bot hits that are attempting to re-index because "they" are well aware changes have occurred. Notice the forum slow response time in the last hours?

At least we're getting excellent exposure by forcing those pesky Google bots to visit us in depth.

Also!! Once these fun times are over we will need to delete the entire search index and also run the re-indexing mechanism again.....this has the potential to take many hours to complete.

@dimkr Are we anywhere near being in the stadium with the organization as it is now?

[dimkr]

@dimkr Are we anywhere near being in the stadium with the organization as it is now?

I think that
1. "Debian Dog, EasyOS, FatDog, Kennel Linux" should be combined with "Puppy Linux Distributions" into one "Distributions" sections with subforums for actively maintained distros (both Puppy and non-Puppy)
2. All legacy distros (= not actively maintained and/or based on an EOL distro) should be grouped together in a "Legacy Distributions" section at the bottom
3. Content that is distro-specific (help for newcomers, troubleshooting, etc') should be in the subforum for this distro, so places like "Announcements", "House Training" and "Advanced Topics" don't need to exist
4. Distinctions like "Programming" and "Development" only make the forum more nested and don't serve a real purpose (IMO subforums inside "Development" can be removed so all development-related topics are directly under "Development")

[d-pupp]

@rockedge It's coming along very nicely. I like what I see. The forum is much easy to browse and active project are clear. The titles make it clear what is puppy stuff and what is not.

Good work.

[keniv]

@fredx181

Clicking the 'minus' icon will collapse and the 'plus' icon expand.

Ah, thanks for that. I had not noticed this before but worse still I didn't find it when I was looking for how to collapse the headers earlier today. I'm going to put it down as a "senior moment". I seem to have more of those these days.

Regards,

Ken.

[wiak]

@dimkr Are we anywhere near being in the stadium with the organization as it is now?

I think that
1. "Debian Dog, EasyOS, FatDog, Kennel Linux" should be combined with "Puppy Linux Distributions" into one "Distributions" sections with subforums for actively maintained distros (both Puppy and non-Puppy)
2. All legacy distros (= not actively maintained and/or based on an EOL distro) should be grouped together in a "Legacy Distributions" section at the bottom
3. Content that is distro-specific (help for newcomers, troubleshooting, etc') should be in the subforum for this distro, so places like "Announcements", "House Training" and "Advanced Topics" don't need to exist
4. Distinctions like "Programming" and "Development" only make the forum more nested and don't serve a real purpose (IMO subforums inside "Development" can be removed so all development-related topics are directly under "Development")

Assuming I understand the above, funnily enough I would seem I pretty much agree with it. Key factor being all distros grouped together would seem to provide equal scope.

[fredx181]

... and fredx181 is fine with anything - nice guy, no fighting for equality.

Not that I'm fine with anything, but indeed I'm not "fighting" for equality.
I can't blame people (who you sometimes call "puppy stewards") having interest only in Puppy, that's what they registered for.
History (or call it perhaps "nostalgia") plays a big part in it IMO, after all this forum is a continuation of the old murga-linux forum.
edit: So I think it's "natural" that the focus is more on Puppy than on others.

Well, at least now it's clear that everything under "Puppy linux distributions" is supposed to be about Puppy only, less confusing I think.
If developers from one of the "Other Distributions" want to have subcategories like "House Training" or e.g. "How-to", they can request that.
(I still think, btw, that "Other Distributions" would be a more appropriate name, as the name of the forum is "Puppy Linux Forum" and that's not gonna change AFAIK).

That's all very well Fred that you personally don't care if DebianDogs get same forum provision as Puppy or not. ...
....

Well, if it's only personal I'd say that DebianDog doesn't even deserve to be seen as equal as the other "distributions" because nowadays it doesn't really fit in the term 'distribution'.
I mean, there's no "latest, greatest" ISO provided, no Distrowatch registration, and the doglinux website hasn't been updated for a long time.
So yes, personally I don't care if DebianDog is sort of guest project in this forum, but I see the point you make about equality in general.

[fredx181]

@dimkr Are we anywhere near being in the stadium with the organization as it is now?

I think that
1. "Debian Dog, EasyOS, FatDog, Kennel Linux" should be combined with "Puppy Linux Distributions" into one "Distributions" sections with subforums for actively maintained distros (both Puppy and non-Puppy)
2. All legacy distros (= not actively maintained and/or based on an EOL distro) should be grouped together in a "Legacy Distributions" section at the bottom
3. Content that is distro-specific (help for newcomers, troubleshooting, etc') should be in the subforum for this distro, so places like "Announcements", "House Training" and "Advanced Topics" don't need to exist
4. Distinctions like "Programming" and "Development" only make the forum more nested and don't serve a real purpose (IMO subforums inside "Development" can be removed so all development-related topics are directly under "Development")

Assuming I understand the above, funnily enough I would seem I pretty much agree with it. Key factor being all distros grouped together would seem to provide equal scope.

Yes, looks good to me too.

[rockedge]

@wiak @fredx181 @dimkr

So combine the Other Distro (DD, EasyOs, Kennel Linux) section with the Puppy section and rename that to "Distributions" and remove the Other Distro category.

I'll do it after lunch. Going down to river with the wife for an hour.

[fredx181]

@wiak @fredx181 @dimkr

So combine the Other Distro (DD, EasyOs, Kennel Linux) section with the Puppy section and rename that to "Distributions" and remove the Other Distro category.

I'll do it after lunch. Going down to river with the wife for an hour.

If it would take three weeks for you to contemplate about these major changes, it would be fine too.

[dancytron]

@rockedge :-

Just an observation, Erik.....if I may? On a serious note now, if we're going to perform this re-organization/re-categorization - and do so 'properly' - can I just draw your attention to the following:-

Seems a bit odd that while Fossapup64 is now in the 'Legacy' section (and yes; I understand why), the considerably older DPup-Stretch - a rock-solid, all-time 'classic' though it is, and one of radky's masterpieces - remains in the "current" Puppy Linux Distros section. Is this simply an oversight, or was there some underlying logic to this choice?

Not wishing to "upset the apple cart" here. Just curious, that's all!

Mike.

Radky's Stretch Puppy is broken because it can't be hooked up the the Debian archive repos. I (and others) tried and failed to fix it.

viewtopic.php?p=87983#p87983

[mikewalsh]

@zangus2024 :-

Well, THANKS for the AI "take" on the subject. Really appreciated.....NOT.

@rockedge @fredx181 @wiak @dimkr :-

I can see this is turning into a four-way conversation strictly between management & senior devs ONLY. I reckon the best thing for the 'rank & file' would be to just pack up & mosey on down the road, 'cos it seems to be a "done job" already.

(What would I know? I'm just a "janitor"......like 3 other unfortunate individuals, simply here to clear up the shit & mess everybody else leaves behind in their over-enthusiasm. Somebody has to do the scut-work.)

I'll leave you good folks to your lofty deliberations. Too far-reaching & grandiose for the likes of little folk like me. 'Cos I'll tell y'all this much; whatever you come up with, it ain't gonna make a shit's-worth of difference to "foot-traffic".....oh, wait; yes it will. If anything, it'll drive even more people away from wanting anything to do with Puppy, 'cos the front page is becoming so insanely complex & over-complicated that no-one in their right mind would want anything to do with this community.

But of course, y'all know better than the rest of us mere mortals.....

(*Jeezus...*)

Mike.

[rockedge]

@mikewalsh I feel like the front page is more streamline. Some of this I like and some is still not solid.

I've been weighing in my mind just about everyone's ideas and that's what you come up with to tell me?

where do you think the front page is confusing?

what can be done to improve from where the organization of the sections is now?

Perhaps we shut off the collapsible sections mechanism,

[dimkr]

funnily enough I would seem I pretty much agree with it

Agree with it or funnily pretty much agree with it? I'm only using few areas of the forum and don't fully understand the 'exposure' argument: most of my critique of the current structure is about weird or arbitrary distinctions, and subforums with unclear or overlapping purpose.

(Regarding puppylinux.com, it's full of incorrect information that maybe was true years ago and some things, like the main page vs. downloads page, are super weird: somebody will need to rebuild this site to make it actually useful as an intro to Puppy)

(And Vanilla Dpup won't exactly fit in the Puppy sub-section in the future because it will become a hard fork that's very different and continues only few Puppy traditions; it will become more non-Puppy)

[rockedge]

somebody will need to rebuild this site to make it actually useful

you're familiar with pushing to GitHub or are we waiting for somebody to show up?

Since no one regularly maintains the GitHub pages I'll use a free bootstrap template and construct the one page design BUT...........

There is also the possibility to enable the underlying dormant WordPress site to perform as the Puppy Linux home pages. This way people can login and keep the text up to date. There would be no need to redirect to the GitHub pages at all.

Give me some written text content, ideas on the images and screenshots with the way access to them. WordPress site can be relatively quickly set up if there is no discussions on style themes and such. It should be a simple informative .design.

Agree with it or funnily pretty much agree with it?

There's a difference?

[dimkr]

you're familiar with pushing to GitHub or are we waiting for somebody to show up?

I left the woof-CE organization and don't have permissions anymore, plus my past attempts to change it were all denied.

There's a difference?

Yes, there's a difference between a clear 'yes' and a 'yes but'.

[mikewalsh]

@rockedge :-

I've been weighing in my mind just about everyone's ideas and that's what you come up with to tell me?

where do you think the front page is confusing?

what can be done to improve from where the organization of the sections is now?

Nah, don't take it to heart, Erik. If anything, it's me.

You're trying to do the best you can, as you always DO. You make the best of every situation that crops up, you try to take everybody's "input" under due consideration and attempt to come up with a solution that offends as few folks as possible, along with putting as few noses out of joint as you can. I don't envy your job. It's a delicate balancing act at the best of times.....and that's just the human side of the equation. Then - on top of all that - you've got multiple technical aspects to take into account...

I wouldn't want to be a webmaster for all the tea in China.

I'm a simple bloke, Erik. I've enjoyed being part of this community for the last decade. I like coming here each day, though for a while now it's been getting so it hurts my head navigating around it, with all the extra bits that keep getting added. But with all these dozens, if not scores of new sub-sections that your "second-in-command" seems hell-bent on pushing you into adding - at no expense to him, naturally! - I'm beginning to dread putting in an appearance. By the very nature of the job, a moderator has to get all over the site if he/she is going to be effective at what they do.....and the more sections you add, the harder you make that job.

===========================================

I used to relish change when I was younger. But once you get to a certain point in your life, predictability & familiarity begin to gain more & more of an appeal. I intend to continue to show up here each day, but I'm beginning to wonder whether I'll enjoy it as much as I once did.

The new layout seems geared towards a developer's idea of how the site should be. I'm not sure as the ordinary member is getting much consideration in all this...and it's completely pointless MY making any sort of suggestions, because whatever I might come up with I know I'll be pooh-poohed, laughed-out and told I'm talking a load of "squit". So why bother?

In all honesty, our community must be unique in having these kinds of problems in the whole of the Linux eco-system. There are so many varieties, versions, re-builds, re-masters, different 'takes' on existing idea within the whole concept of the 'portable' operating system - along with that many 'developers' all wanting their slice of the action - that I doubt our "issues" would be found anywhere else in the world.

Carry on & do as you think best, my friend.

Ah, hell. I'm showing my age. Ignore me. Everybody else does.....I'm used to it by now!

Mike.

[rockedge]

And Vanilla Dpup won't exactly fit in the Puppy sub-section in the future because it will become a hard fork that's very different and continues only few Puppy traditions; it will become more non-Puppy

Not a problem.....we will definitely find a good spot for Vanilla Dpup......the section with Kennel Linux and EasyOS might be a place to start. Let me know when it's time.

And after looking over the home pages for puppylinux.com I fail to see what the glaring problems are. Can you perhaps be more specific as to what is no longer accurate? What and where do things need to be changed in your opinion?

I don't feel like I necessarily need to build another WordPress site and I'll need content to build the one page Bootstrap web site landing page if you get my drift.

[greengeek]

Lastly, perhaps the forum could implement a clear "getting started" section for new users, prominently featuring a well-maintained flagship version. A polished first impression, combined with easy access to guides and a welcoming community, could help retain newcomers.

I think this is a key idea and definitely one we should improve on.
Increase the front page visibility for ways that users can sample each distro type.

So new users can go straight to a thread that coaches them with ways to trial any given distro via:
- CD or DVD boot
- Ventoy boot
- DD img write method
- SG2D
- Manual frugal install
etc
etc

...whatever method / methods are appropriate to each distro type.

[fredx181]

I think it's important to know if moderators agree or not with what is proposed for a forum structure change.

[Wiz57]

I think it's important to know if moderators agree or not with what is proposed for a forum structure change.

My opinion counts for next to nothing, as I've been told. BUT, if you really want it...here goes!
Why the worry about "equality"? What does that even mean? One thing that seems to slip through
some minds is the actual value of the name "Puppy Linux"! We've got some 20 years of name exposure,
this forum was graciuosly provided to replace the dying Murga forum, and considering that "desktop
Linux" still only accounts for about 4% of the installed desktop/laptop OSes, Puppy Linux continues
to be mentioned by many technical sites out there in the big old WWW. To place Puppy Linux in some
sort of second class mention on the forum is downright ridiculous! When someone interested in a smaller
Linux distribution for use either via USB drive or install to internal drive, they do a search on the internet
Doesn't matter the search engine used...DuckDuckGo, Bing, Google, whatever...Puppy Linux is ALWAYS one of
the top results. That is what brings attention to this forum. To act as if it didn't is ignoring reality.

OK, I've said enough...I now have to prepare for the inevitable attacks which of late I've tried to ignore...
BUT I READ THEM!

[mikewalsh]

I think it's important to know if moderators agree or not with what is proposed for a forum structure change.

@fredx181 :-

Oh, please. Why on earth would anyone NEED to know, Fred..? No-one ever listens....and if they do, they don't "hear". It goes in one ear & straight out the other. It's called "selective deafness", my friend; people ONLY hear what they WANT to hear.

What I wouldn't mind seeing ain't gonna happen, because it doesn't "jibe" with what's wanted by those who are in a position to make it happen. So I see no point in saying anything at all.

Mike.

[rockedge]

by those who are in a position to make it happen.

that would be me moving the stuff around. About to give up and chalk it up as a failed cause.

You know I can always put it all back to the way it was in the end.

Should I call it a day and think about a restructure some day.......... maybe......... down the road?

Not many if any, are showing any signs this is going somewhere and I'm just not into the stress. Makes me feel stupid since I put it in what I thought was a better organization.

My dedication to Puppy Linux's well-being is being seriously questioned so it is looking like a vote of no confidence will dissolve the efforts.