The future of the forum and about the structure

[tosim]

I'm NOT meaning to criticize those of you looking to make separate sections for each distro but lets remember who actually "gets
stuck" with doing All the restructuring! AFAIC, I have NO problems with the present setup. And yes, there is no doubt very many
"phantom users", who use our forum almost daily, find an answer to their questions already posted, and then they don't even
bother to post a thanks or click on that icon.

[wizard]

As we go down this rabbit hole again, hope we all consider these things to guide our direction:

-There are thousands of Linux distros available
-What is unique about Puppy, and our derivatives, and what do we do better than anyone else?
-Who would be interested and why?
-Who are WE trying to attract and WHY?

We all recognize the dedication and work that @rockedge contributes. Now ask yourself, if we double or triple the forum traffic and user base, do you think his job gets easier? Not likely.

There is a line between being unique, and better for some users, and just being a "also ran". As we move forward, we should be careful not to cross that line.

wizard

[d-pupp]

My two cents on how and what to change would be to keep it simple.

I would like to see Dog House, Easy OS, and FatDog moved to Distributions section so that all Distro's are together and have the same weight on the forum.

I would like to see a Legacy section created in each sub forum and all older pups that are not being developed moved there. So that people know what is new and what is legacy.

I would like see the rest of the forum used for general question that could be useful for all or most new pups

These are just idea's to get started.

[dimkr]

...
Since most agree with giving all the distros a separate section, I'd like to see a discussion of a good way to do that.
....

+ 1

I think that restricting all moderators (except @rockedge) to a single distro (Puppy, *Dog, Fatdog, EasyOS, KL) and/or shared spaces (like Off-Topic Area) would be a first good step, because this gives the developers of each distro or moderators trusted by them the power to ban trolls and delete posts that don't exactly help improve their distro and the community of users around it. @wiak is complaining about Puppy folks that gang up on him, so let's give him the rights to delete their posts and ban them from KL specific spaces while also preventing what Puppy fans might perceive as provocations in Puppy territory. In addition, Puppy has no future if the place where most development happens has a vocal critic of Puppy who is "above law" with moderator status.

Then, I think Puppy has way too many subforums - I think that "Beginners Help" and "Users" can be unified, "Puppy Projects" and "Programming" can be unified into a "Development" forum that is not Puppy-specific, and so on. In addition, "DISTRIBUTIONS" and "FORUM" can be unified.

[tosim]

@wizard i just could not click the thank you icon for your above post. IMHO,YOU REALLY
HIT THE MARK. What an apropos post that is. THANK YOU.

[keniv]

I'm NOT meaning to criticize those of you looking to make separate sections for each distro but lets remember who actually "gets
stuck" with doing All the restructuring! AFAIC, I have NO problems with the present setup. And yes, there is no doubt very many
"phantom users", who use our forum almost daily, find an answer to their questions already posted, and then they don't even
bother to post a thanks or click on that icon.

I also have no issue with the current structure. I think much of what's being proposed would create a lot of work for one or at best a few people for very little if any gain. I don't think that such a workload should be imposed on anyone with out good evidence that it would lead to a substantial improvement over what we currently have. So far I don't see such evidence. Just my two pence worth as a nonphantom user of this forum.

Regards,

Ken.

[wiak]

Just get back to 'your puppy business as usual' guys.

Regards,

wiak

[williwaw]

I think that restricting all moderators (except @rockedge) to a single distro (Puppy, *Dog, Fatdog, EasyOS, KL) and/or shared spaces (like Off-Topic Area) would be a first good step, because this gives the developers of each distro or moderators trusted by them the power to ban trolls and delete posts that don't exactly help improve their distro and the community of users around it. @wiak is complaining about Puppy folks that gang up on him, so let's give him the rights to delete their posts and ban them from KL specific spaces while also preventing what Puppy fans might perceive as provocations in Puppy territory. In addition, Puppy has no future if the place where most development happens has a vocal critic of Puppy who is "above law" with moderator status.

Then, I think Puppy has way too many subforums - I think that "Beginners Help" and "Users" can be unified, "Puppy Projects" and "Programming" can be unified into a "Development" forum that is not Puppy-specific, and so on. In addition, "DISTRIBUTIONS" and "FORUM" can be unified.

this sounds good, especially consolidating some sections.
A redesign and simplification of the home page could also make clearer to new forum visitors the distinctions between the different projects.

Other than @rockedge SEO concerns which have already been mentioned, I think it would be helpful if he could input more to the community which types of restructuring of the forum are a pratical use of his time and what kinds arn't.
can a forum section become a subforum section as easily as moving content to a sub directory with a file manager?

[mow9902]

As we go down this rabbit hole again, hope we all consider these things to guide our direction:

-There are thousands of Linux distros available
-What is unique about Puppy, and our derivatives, and what do we do better than anyone else?
-Who would be interested and why?
-Who are WE trying to attract and WHY?

We all recognize the dedication and work that @rockedge contributes. Now ask yourself, if we double or triple the forum traffic and user base, do you think his job gets easier? Not likely.

There is a line between being unique, and better for some users, and just being a "also ran". As we move forward, we should be careful not to cross that line.

wizard

I strongly support these comments by wizard. For me the key is continuing to focus on, and promote, those things which are unique about Puppy. All of us could be using an alternative system - but we continue to use Puppy - why? For me, it is
- the small size enabling the OS to run in memory, and the whole system to install to USB
- the layered system which provides the ability to 'save changes' or not (providing a 'kiosk' like operation if you choose)
- the separate user save file - which is really the only thing needed to backup to ensure personal changes are preserved when rebuilding the system, or transferring to a new USB stick
- the forum contributors, willingness to help with problems, speed of response

[rockedge]

@wiak why bail out now? You are a big part of this. We are discussing it. Pretend we're at a Cafe downtown havin'a chat over some coffee .

No decisions have been made yet as to exactly will happen with the structure design changes.

I like some of the unification strategies.Re-arranging the sections can be done easily enough.

Remember massive re-arrangement of the forum sections will cause a big drop in SEO value with millions of broken links then everything having to be re-indexed adding lots of Bot and Spider activity which means bandwidth consumption....and other considerations like access, page loading speeds and server loads on a shared host system.

Of course we can go forward and set up the new structure once it's decided on and just take the temporary hit to the SEO because I think we can make a smooth transition to new design and still retain decent ranking.

[greengeek]

I would really like to see a thread (or threads) that was/were titled something like:

- How To sample Puppy
- How to sample KL
- How to sample EasyOs
- How to sample Debian Dog.
etc etc

Personally I like to do a CD or DVD boot to sample a new OS but I know that's an old viewpoint.

How can we make it eye-catchingly easy for newcomers to get a quick start with any/all of the various offerings on the PLDF?

[ozsouth]

@rockedge said:

Re-arranging the sections can be done easily enough.

Perhaps that one is worthwhile.

Remember massive re-arrangement of the forum sections will cause a big drop in SEO value with millions of broken links then everything having to be re-indexed adding lots of Bot and Spider activity which means bandwidth consumption....and other considerations like access, page loading speeds and server loads on a shared host system

I don't think that's worth the effort & pain.

I'm basically happy with what we have.

[mikewalsh]

@greengeek :-

I would really like to see a thread (or threads) that was/were titled something like:

- How To sample Puppy
- How to sample KL
- How to sample EasyOs
- How to sample Debian Dog.
etc etc

Personally I like to do a CD or DVD boot to sample a new OS but I know that's an old viewpoint.

How can we make it eye-catchingly easy for newcomers to get a quick start with any/all of the various offerings on the PLDF?

Heh. Well; though it pains me to say it , @Clarity 's favourite - Ventoy - is probably the easiest way for noobs to try Puppy out! Despite my admitted annoyance with his constant mention of it in the early days of the new forum, he's proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it's the simplest way to try out ANY of this forum's many & varied offerings. His industrious testing has made that undeniably obvious.....despite that, for me at least, it never seemed to work the way it was supposed to.

You've only got to read the many posts from other forum members who HAVE found success with it.

Mike.

[mikewalsh]

@dimkr :-

I think that restricting all moderators (except @rockedge) to a single distro (Puppy, *Dog, Fatdog, EasyOS, KL) and/or shared spaces (like Off-Topic Area) would be a first good step, because this gives the developers of each distro or moderators trusted by them the power to ban trolls and delete posts that don't exactly help improve their distro and the community of users around it.

Well, cheers, mate. Stick yet another knife in our backs (alongside the many already there), why don't you? It's unbelievable; despite that the four of us do our best to keep the forum tidy, running smoothly & ticking over like clockwork, apparently WE are perceived to be the root cause of ALL the forum's problems. Thanks a bunch.

I don't follow you, Dima. Why should ANY of our devs NEED to have "trusted" moderators 'on their side', hm? That smacks of 'negative favouritism', right there.....

===============================

So; you're essentially saying that the staff can't BE "trusted" to be neutral. You must have a very low opinion of us... For my part, I don't believe I have EVER 'dissed' anybody's hard work in that respect. I admit, I have a personal preference for somewhat older Puppies, yes.....so what? I don't recommend others follow this practice, obviously. Maybe you see THAT as 'dissing' everything else? Perhaps it's perceived as a crime for staff NOT to be always recommending the very newest, most up-to-date Pups.....hmm?

I try out no end of forum offerings, though I admit I don't always post reports on them. Frankly, I DO have a 'life' outside the forum, and don't always have the time to do so. They're ALL very good; I'm sorry if you perhaps see it as an insult for me NOT to give feedback. If so, I can only apologize to ALL our devs for that apparent oversight on my part. Jeezus.....

I'd appreciate clarification from you on this point, please. Like so many others, you apparently don't have a clue just how much work goes on behind the scenes to KEEP things running as smoothly as possible.

I'm offended.

Mike.

[Wiz57]

@dimkr :-

I think that restricting all moderators (except @rockedge) to a single distro (Puppy, *Dog, Fatdog, EasyOS, KL) and/or shared spaces (like Off-Topic Area) would be a first good step, because this gives the developers of each distro or moderators trusted by them the power to ban trolls and delete posts that don't exactly help improve their distro and the community of users around it.

Well, cheers, mate. Stick yet another knife in our backs (alongside the many already there), why don't you? It's unbelievable; despite that the four of us do our best to keep the forum tidy, running smoothly & ticking over like clockwork, apparently WE are perceived to be the root cause of ALL the forum's problems. Thanks a bunch.

I don't follow you, Dima. Why should ANY of our devs NEED to have "trusted" moderators 'on their side', hm? That smacks of 'negative favouritism', right there.....

===============================

So; you're essentially saying that the staff can't BE "trusted" to be neutral. You must have a very low opinion of us... For my part, I don't believe I have EVER 'dissed' anybody's hard work in that respect. I admit, I have a personal preference for somewhat older Puppies, yes.....so what? I don't recommend others follow this practice, obviously. Maybe you see THAT as 'dissing' everything else? Perhaps it's perceived as a crime for staff NOT to be always recommending the very newest, most up-to-date Pups.....hmm?

I try out no end of forum offerings, though I admit I don't always post reports on them. Frankly, I DO have a 'life' outside the forum, and don't always have the time to do so. They're ALL very good; I'm sorry if you perhaps see it as an insult for me NOT to give feedback. If so, I can only apologize to ALL our devs for that apparent oversight on my part. Jeezus.....

I'd appreciate clarification from you on this point, please. Like so many others, you apparently don't have a clue just how much work goes on behind the scenes to KEEP things running as smoothly as possible.

I'm offended.

Mike.

Actually, much of what he wishes for is ALREADY IN EXISTENCE!!! All one has to do is click "The Team" link on any page of this forum,
and they will see that besides the 4 admins and the 4 global moderators, there are various other moderators that are assigned
to their respective areas. Excuse me now, there seems to be a sharp pain in my back!! I'd best check this out!

[bigpup]

Give some more information of what this area is.

Just labeled Forum says nothing to anyone!
.
.

Screenshot(3).jpg (48.17 KiB) Viewed 831 times

[amethyst]

It seems some are concerned that some distributions on here gets more exposure than others. This is strange to me since the different distributions actually ALREADY have their own sub-sections. As someone has suggested, maybe all the distributions should be listed in the same distribution section (Puppys and what else have you) with links then that will take it to their own sub-sections...and then maybe change the name of the forum to something like Rockedge Paradise or something...

[dimkr]

I'd appreciate clarification from you on this point, please.

Currently, one of the critics of Puppy, the forum title and the forum structure, is an administrator, and this person is hostile towards Puppy and its developers. This person wants to see Puppy archived, as far as I understand.

Without some kind of "separation of powers" between developes competing for attention and recognition for their distro, equal representation of different distros will only make life harder for those trying to contribute and help develop their favorite distro. This is why I think that restructuring the forum won't help address any of the pain points raised, unless there's some mechanism (more moderators that cover smaller areas) to protect this neutrality going forward.

[wiak]

I'd appreciate clarification from you on this point, please.

Currently, one of the critics of Puppy, the forum title and the forum structure, is an administrator, and this person is hostile towards Puppy and its developers. This person wants to see Puppy archived, as far as I understand.

Stop your personal crap and lies. I already told you.

[amethyst]

How many unique users do the distributions combined presented on this forum have? My guess is fewer than 10000, a very small speck on the spectrum of desktop users. All this bickering about exposure and so on is a bit silly and laughable.

[rockedge]

How many unique users do the distributions combined presented on this forum have? My guess is fewer than 10000

This forum 2060
The old forum 27743

All this bickering about exposure and so on is a bit silly and laughable

That's all fine and good you see that way. How about something constructive instead.

If I wrote what you did and directed toward you, I can guarantee you'd hit the ceiling by understanding it as I am calling you silly and laughable. Prove me wrong.

Why not in all of your wisdom come on down from your lofty position and share your ideas on how to improve or not the forum structure.....you see this is NOT only about exposure.....but it is about which direction to keep moving the operating systems forward.

For example Noblepup64 is nice and I like it but still suffers from all the usual Puppy shortcomings and also is quickly sliding into a place where it is hard to improve it without just remastering it because I'm not going to dive any deeper into woof-CE.

[rockedge]

This person wants to see Puppy archived, as far as I understand.

As far as I see it you do as well.

You're the one who publicly bailed out on woof-CE and forked to whatever, repeatedly reminding everyone how you are not making anymore commits and improvements to it. So the pot calling the kettle black it seems.

Currently, one of the critics of Puppy, the forum title and the forum structure, is an administrator, and this person is hostile towards Puppy and its developers.

Why not keep that to yourself and tell me something constructive. You of all people talking about hostile??????

[amethyst]

How many unique users do the distributions combined presented on this forum have? My guess is fewer than 10000

This forum 2060
The old forum 27743

All this bickering about exposure and so on is a bit silly and laughable

That's all fine and good you see that way. How about something constructive instead.

If I wrote what you did and directed toward you, I can guarantee you'd hit the ceiling by understanding it as I am calling you silly and laughable. Prove me wrong.

Why not in all of your wisdom come on down from your lofty position and share your ideas on how to improve or not the forum structure.....you see this is NOT only about exposure.....but it is about which direction to keep moving the operating systems forward.

For example Noblepup64 is nice and I like it but still suffers from all the usual Puppy shortcomings and also is quickly sliding into a place where it is hard to improve it without just remastering it because I'm not going to dive any deeper into woof-CE.

That's the registered users on your forum but not necessarily ACTUAL users of the distributions. What I'm trying to say is that the disributions offered here makes up such a tiny spec of actual users (in the world) that the huge bickering about such small impact distributions is actually laughable. I have made quite a few (constructive, I think) recommendations on this thread from my "lofty" position as just another user of Puppy and other distributions like Windows. Do you read my recommendations or just laugh it off?

[dimkr]

Why not keep that to yourself and tell me something constructive. You of all people talking about hostile??????

Yes, me, the only truly active contributor woof-CE between 2020 and the time I decided I won't tolerate this hostility towards my work (especially from other developers, who resist any change for no reason), towards me (including antisemitic attacks) and towards Puppy in general. I'll keep doing "constructive" things at https://github.com/vanilla-dpup/woof-CE and let you boil the Puppy until it's gone from this forum.

[rockedge]

Do you read my recommendations or just laugh it off?

I read them and keep them in mix. No moves of re-organization has happened nor is even decided on yet.

[rockedge]

@dimkr I know how much you've contributed. I am using NoblePup64 which you made as good as it is.

I know I was NEVER hostile to your work on any of it and agreed and liked the direction you had it going. Then hearing that you left it because of attacks by other devs? Are they even still here...most of the main people have left I thought, Who is harrassing you and who is preventing you from returning to the project?

between 2020 and the time I decided I won't tolerate this hostility towards my work (especially from other developers, who resist any change for no reason),

I see. And where are these attacks coming from?

I would like to set the wrongs right. Changing Puppy Linux structurally has to happen and every one knows it.....the spirit and history remain.

Were you around when I proposed moving the old forum to a new one because no one was maintaining the server or the forum code and everything about phpBB version 2.0.21 was long passed EOL. That there were no administrators to deal with the email system breaking down. I was hammered on just saying it but I just knew what the reality was and went ahead and here we are.
https://oldforum.puppylinux.com/viewtop ... 5#p1062295

[rockedge]

I feel like if I say anything I am getting reamed for it......then I sit back and follow along and that's not good enough either.

Accused of this that and the other thing because of what? I'm not fast enough to make perfection or what?

and let you boil the Puppy until it's gone from this forum.

Interesting where once again I'm the enemy to Puppy Linux......I'll respond with @amethyst's words "a bit silly and laughable" is what that is @dimkr

[Wiz57]

Were you around when I proposed moving the old forum to a new one because no one was maintaining the server or the forum code and everything about phpBB version 2.0.21 was long passed EOL. That there were no administrators to deal with the email system breaking down. I was hammered on just saying it but I just knew what the reality was and went ahead and here we are.
https://oldforum.puppylinux.com/viewtop ... 5#p1062295

I was around...look down the list of replies, about the 8th one or so, you'll see
""Registry Expiry Date: 2020-11-20T01:05:37Z "

Hmm, does this mean after November 2020 this forum will be offline
until the registration is renewed? Is it renewed automatically?

I've used Rockedge's forum, it's quite nice, and in my opinion
(which with a bit of money might buy a cup of coffee) now is the
time to move ALL the content to something like Rock's, perhaps in
a sub-category "Old Murga Forum". If we wait til the site goes
dark, it may be too late.

Wiz"

[dogcat]

rockedge
For the future forum pease take into consideration whether it will be able to core an apple

The future can be an intimidating place so very important to have the proper utensils for doing the job properly. A sense of humor is essential (in my opinion)

This short 5-minute video is posted to remind everyone how harrowing the future of anything can be and as a reminder for everyone to hopefully laugh once in a while

Oh yea, make sure to upgrade the forum software to Discord when rearranging, it is what all the cool kids use

Rodger dodger over and out!

[mikewalsh]

I feel like if I say anything I am getting reamed for it......then I sit back and follow along and that's not good enough either.

Accused of this that and the other thing because of what? I'm not fast enough to make perfection or what?

and let you boil the Puppy until it's gone from this forum.

Interesting where once again I'm the enemy to Puppy Linux......I'll respond with @amethyst's words "a bit silly and laughable" is what that is @dimkr

@rockedge :-

Welcome to reality, Erik.

History repeats itself ad nauseam. You wouldn't be the first to be "back-stabbed" by those who resent seeing anybody make a success of something (whatever that may be). It's predictable how most such attacks invariably come from those who haven't a clue about the amount of work & determination that's involved in setting-up, paying-for and maintaining any kind of friendly, inviting online venue for a group of like-minded individuals.....let alone keeping it that way. And you definitely won't be the last.....

(*sigh...*)

'Tis one of those "crosses" that must needs be borne, mate. Ya gotta develop broad shoulders.....and a 'waterproof' back (like a duck's) comes in pretty handy at times, too.

I believe I'm right in stating that the vast majority of us are appreciative - and very grateful! - that you do what you do for the community. "Thank you". (There you go; didn't cost me a dime, that didn't. Yet it makes a world of difference...)

Mike.