Kernel 6.11 firmware rolldown (fallback) issue

[ozsouth]

I found that, unlike 6.10 & earlier kernels, 6.11 seems to require exact firmware versions, whereas previously the system would rolldown several versions to find one that works. i.e. my Lenovo Ideadpad Slim 1i, with wifi6-ax, in s15pup64-240717, uses
iwlwifi-QuZ-a0-hr-b0-77.ucode
but in pre-6.11, any version would work, down to about
iwlwifi-QuZ-a0-hr-b0-48.ucode (I have v59 in my fdrv)
dmesg | grep iwlwifi
would show all the failed attempts till success. With 6.11, only v77 will work.

I see the DOTconfig option
CONFIG_FW_LOADER_USER_HELPER_FALLBACK
which seems useful, but is not set by anyone.

The following link discusses, but I just don't understand it.
https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v6.11/d ... nisms.html
I'm hesitant to try it in case of unforseen rare consequences.

Without a resolution, it means everyone who gets new kit will always have to chase down new firmware, so we'll get continual 'puppy won't run my pc ootb' complaints.

[JusGellin]

Interesting!

I just experienced a similar thing using my new laptop that also wouldn't connect to wifi when using KLV-vmHost.rc4 which has kernel 6.10.10 though.

The problem also was that it didn't have an older wifi firmware that I was able to use from BookwormPup64_10.0.8 which is in its older kernel 6.1.106.
I just added those two firmware files from kernel 6.1.106 which now makes wifi work.

[ozsouth]

OK, I compiled kernel 6.11.8 with CONFIG_FW_LOADER_USER_HELPER_FALLBACK=y
but although sysfs fallback was attempted this time, v77 was all that was acceptable, not v59.

[ozsouth]

Just compiled kernel 6.12.1 - iwlwifi lack of fallback persists. This means (without a solution), anyone who uses a kernel after 6.10.14 with newer iwlwifi will need to have the exact firmware version required, to connect wifi. Major pain. I will try some other wifi devices & see how I go. Attached below is my DOTconfig. I have wifi6 ax203 (iwlwifi-QuZ-a0-hr-b0-77.ucode ONLY) in my main laptop.

Later:
ath10k (qca9377) is fine
intel ac3165 (iwlwifi-7265D) is fine
.
Later again: tested peebee's 6.12.1-lxpup64 kernel - same no-fallback issue, so probably not a DOTconfig thing.
.

[ozsouth]

Had another go at this after noticing JusGellin had some fallback happening with a Bookwormpup64 official 6.11 kernel. Several attempts, all failed. So I will either stick to 6.6 or add no-fallback warning (& you may have to hunt for firmware) to any 6.11+ kernels. Any more issues like this & I will have to give up making kernels with my current method in the next year or so.

[dimkr]

AFAIK CONFIG_FW_LOADER_USER_HELPER_FALLBACK requires support in udev, which was removed years ago. Without a userspace tool that handles the firmware loading events, enabling this kconfig option doesn't do anything. In addition, this option is an alternative to direct loading from /lib/firmware by the kernel (a userspace tool reads firmware from somewhere and passes it to the kernel instead) and not a way make the kernel fall back to old firmware versions if the expected ones are missing.

[ozsouth]

@dimkr - thanks - I noticed no-one else enables it & it fails to fallback anyway. Something changed with 6.11 & I can't see a solution, other than no-fallback warnings & eventually giving up my old method.

[dimkr]

it fails to fallback

It doesn't do anything not because it fails, but because it doesn't even try

udev is no longer handling those requests from the kernel. There is no fallback.

[JusGellin]

@ozsouth @dimkr
I see the same problem when running a 2021 Dell laptop.

Ok, now that I know what is going on with this kernel and figuring out what to do,
what is the latest kernel version that I can use without this problem and where can I get it?

Also since it takes special manual copy of firmware for wifi, will there be other problems as well that need manual copy of firmware?

Even though this seems to be pretty daunting for me, it is helping me to understand better how to troubleshoot problems better.

Thanks

[dimkr]

@JusGellin You're experiencing a problem only because you're mixing a kernel package from one source and firmware from another, and the versions are not compatible (kernel drivers expect new versions of firmware, but you're using old firmware, or the other way around). This problem doesn't happen if versions are compatible - for example, my Puppy builds have a kernel derived from the Debian kernel source and firmware from the same Debian version, so they're guaranteed to be compatible. I don't know if something has changed in recent kernels, but mixing possibly incompatible drivers and firmware has always been a source of issues.

[ozsouth]

@JusGellin - the last USRMERGE kernel I made without this issue was 6.10.14 - I made it specifically because of this. Is suited to Bookwormpup64, with it's fdrv.
That said, as dimkr says, mismatches are generally not a good idea.

[Marv]

Just compiled kernel 6.12.1 - iwlwifi lack of fallback persists. This means (without a solution), anyone who uses a kernel after 6.10.14 with newer iwlwifi will need to have the exact firmware version required, to connect wifi. Major pain. I will try some other wifi devices & see how I go. Attached below is my DOTconfig. I have wifi6 ax203 (iwlwifi-QuZ-a0-hr-b0-77.ucode ONLY) in my main laptop.

Later:
ath10k (qca9377) is fine
intel ac3165 (iwlwifi-7265D) is fine
.
Later again: tested peebee's 6.12.1-lxpup64 kernel - same no-fallback issue, so probably not a DOTconfig thing.
.

Information only, the 6.11.x and the 6.12.1 (peebees') kernels are also ok with the ath9k card (no firmware required):

Network device [0280] Qualcomm Atheros AR9287 Wireless Network Adapter (PCI-Express) [168c:002e] (rev 01)
Kernel Driver ath9k

I'm using those kernels where I absolutely need them to get clean lidsuspend on my hardware (BW64 and VoidPup64 only) and for now anyway sticking to the 6.6.xx series elsewhere.

Edited twice for clarity wrt kernels vs cards and grammar.

[JusGellin]

@ozsouth @dimkr
Thanks for the explanations.

I just don't know enough to ask the right questions and where to get what I need. I just need good guidance to go into the right direction to make things work, if possible.

Thanks

@JusGellin - the last USRMERGE kernel I made without this issue was 6.10.14 - I made it specifically because of this. Is suited to Bookwormpup64. In the forum Firmware topic, I've just released fdrvs (03dec24) with the latest iwlwifi firmware (Bookwormpup64 needs the USRMERGE one). That combo should work ok.
That said, as dimkr says, mismatches are generally not a good idea.

I found where to get this kernel, but wasn't sure where the forum Firmware topic is to get the fdrvs (03dec24). Where do I get this?

You guys really get involved with some very technical things. I appreciate it.
Thanks