How to create a Frugal Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

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HarveyH
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How to create a Frugal Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by HarveyH »

How to set up a Ventoy system as a Frugal Puppy install
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimers:
This works for me: YMMV
Sometimes Eye don’t no how two reed the dox
I’m a doofus

History:

Ventory is a lovely app that allows you to boot up Linuxes and other OSes on a Secure Boot system. I won’t go into the details here. The problem is that although there is an option to allow the Ventoy partition to be remounted so the booted Linux can see it, that option only half-works with Puppy.

If the option is off, you get a Puppy menu with weird characters around the borders and no access to the ISO anymore. If the option is on, the Puppy menu works, but after Puppy is booted, the Ventoy partition is locked away from the OS. When you try to make your pupsave, it demands to create it on the Ventoy partition and that partition has -1024 space available. It won’t work. The work-around I used up until today was to use AnyBurn to edit the first boot entry in the grub menu with a psave=sdd3 at the end to tell it to put the save file/folder there. Sdd3 is an ext4 partition on my drive. This worked fine but was limited. As I was waking up today, I remembered something I had read in the “read me” file about a pdrv= parameter and that little voice in my head (not the one that tells me to KILL PEOPLE!!!) said, “that tells the system where the Puppy files are”. SO, I played with it today.

How To Make the System:

You will need Anyburn and a partition for the Puppy files.

1) Use Anyburn to extract the /boot/grub/grub.cfg file from the ISO onto your desktop or somewhere Windows can get at it.

2) Edit it and add a parameter pdrv=[Name of your Puppy partition] to all the entries. It goes in the same line as the pmedia parameter and other stuff.

3) Use Anyburn to replace the old grub.cfg and recreate the ISO file (maybe give it a different name). Put it into the Ventoy partition.

4) Boot that one up with Ventoy. On the first entry, press “e” (for edit) and remove the pdrv entry so it gets the files from the ISO.

5) Press F10 to boot up the system.

6) Get your wifi set up. The rest don’t matter.

7) Download a new Puppy ISO or go to one you have stored on your system. Note: You will NOT be able to access the one in the Ventoy partition, Puppy cannot mount that partition. If it *could*, we wouldn’t have to jump though hoops!!

8) Click on it to mount it.

9) Copy the six .sfs files to the Puppy partition.

10 ) Reboot. Don’t try to save the setup (you can’t anyway).

If you did it right, you should get a nice Puppy system that behaves (mostly) like a proper frugal install. When you go to create the savefile, you will get a proper response.(FINALLY!)
If Puppy is an NTFS partition, it will ask you where to put the savefile.
If Puppy is an ext partition, it will ask you if you want a save file or a save folder.

I want the last few weeks of my life back!

-----
Optional: Edit the ISO with Anyburn again, remove the 6 .sfs files, and reburn another ISO called “Stripped-down Puppy” or something. The only reason to do this I suppose is as a POC to show that the files in the Puppy partition are really the ones being accessed. I did it.
----

I said above, “mostly like a proper frugal install” because the boot files are still locked away in that ISO and you can’t get at them easily as a real frugal install would be. I also say “mostly” to cover my butt. Ultimately this setup may not work for everything. I have not tried a remaster, editing/adding new .sfs files, or any fancy tricks yet.

YMMV
I am a doofus. Dont do this or your computer may explode.
Not valid in Alaska or Hawaii.
Batteries not included.

Last edited by bigpup on Wed Aug 14, 2024 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: corrected spelling in subject frual to frugal.
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Re: How to create a Frual Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by Doggy »

Haha, love the disclaimers! Thanks for sharing your experience and workaround for setting up a Ventoy system as a Frugal Puppy install. I can imagine how frustrating it must have been to figure this out, but I appreciate your persistence and willingness to share your knowledge with the community. I'll definitely keep this in mind if I ever need to set up a similar system. And btw, I think we've all been there with the 'I want the last few weeks of my life back!' feeling

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Re: How to create a Frual Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by HarveyH »

@Doggy

Thank you. There is a very simple way to make my tutorial pointless. I will go into a little detail.

Ventory has an option that allows the Ventoy partition to be mountable and viewable after a Linux ISO has booted. This works fine with Ubuntu, MX, and likely a few other Debian/Ubuntu-bases systems. After the ISO boots, the Ventoy partition is a valid partition.

This only half works with Puppy. It works during the boot, but after Puppy is fully booted, the Ventoy partition goes away instead of staying mounted, It's there, but unmountable. When you try to create a savefile/folder, it insists on putting the file on the unmountable Ventoy partition which shows as having -1024 Gigs of freespace. That's why we need either psave, pdrv, or my long-ass stupid tutorial and hoop-jumping.

If this problem didn't exist, life would be so much better. Why is Ubuntu et al so different? Why can it see the Ventoy partition and Puppy cannot?

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Re: How to create a Frual Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by HarveyH »

@Doggy

If Bookwormpup64 would natively boot on a secure boot system, Ventoy would not be needed at all.I do see a MOK key on the ISO, but the system never gives me the option to install it. Usually when a Linux is booted, you get that "Policy does not allow" screen but then it asks if you want to install a MOK key. Not with Puppy. The key is there (the cer file, right?) but no way to install it. So, Ventoy to get around the secure boot stuation.

Just as well. From what I have read, no Puppy has ever had a working MOK key. What up wit dat, Barry?

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Re: How to create a Frual Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by Clarity »

Hello @HarveyH

Like you, I have been a Ventoy user since the year it was introduced. I use it AND I use SuperGRUB2disk (SG2D) regularly. On my Ventoy disc, I have current SG2D ISO and Ventoy's ISO, in a BOOTISOS folder along with ALL ISO files. This allow me to use the disc to create new discs, should that need arise to give to friends.

If you use my methods that I've continue to share on this PLDF forum (follow its instructions) you never need to take the extra steps you take. Those instructions I've published are designed specifically to work for ALL forum distros.

You'll be able to do all the things you do with any PUP pristine or otherwise.

The instructions allows the system to behave identical to frugals. It gets around the problem that is designed into WoofCE Pups. The instructions work for the DOGs and the KLs that are found on the forum. Using the instructions you merely boot any forum's ISO file to desktop and save the session at end. There is NO extractions of files from the ISO files.

BTW: As I mentioned again, this does NOT 'fix' the problem you identify. It circumvents around the problem in order for the WoofCE distro to operate as you would expect including saving in a persistent location for ALL forum distros.

Repeating: The instructions were designed to be universal for all distro ISO files that the developers place on the forum for our use. This one set of instructions; same operation for the user(s) no matter the forum ISO file. And this also boots the ISOs found outside of the forum as well, yet the instructions intend to insure consistency in use for the forum distros.

I also post here successes in its use for every distro I've tested on the forum thus far. This is there for both developers and members alike to 'know' what works and why using those instructions. The same Ventoy disc, built with those same instructions, is used in those tests you find there.

The instructions are simple as they also are years old, but continue to be accurate. My instructions negate any need for extractions from the ISO for the distros to operate as if extractions had been done. Of course, if a users wants, they can do any extractions they choose even though its unnecessary in order to operate as if frugal extractions had been done.

Try it out. Report any issues you might run into.

Here is a set of instructions. Adjust YOUR Ventoy disc to match the instructions for keeping your ISOs (this you might find unnecessary, BUT, its an important element). When done, post back here for fool-proof, battle-tested instructions for keeping (saving) ALL forum sessions without issues in understanding or use.

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Re: How to create a Frual Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by HarveyH »

> You'll be able to do all the things you do with any PUP pristine or otherwise.

Which I can already do.

>There is NO extractions of files from the ISO files.

That defeats the purpose of a frual install; the ability to easily replace or add .sfs files without having to edit the ISO every single time.

>Try it out. Report any issues you might run into.

I did try it. As far as I can see, it's a standard Ventoy ISO-boot situation with supergub2 iso added just in case Ventoy fails. If you do something to make it work "just like a frugal install", I sure missed it. It seems work just like a regular ISO boot. You even say to choose the Puppy ISO.

>When done, post back here for fool-proof, battle-tested instructions for keeping (saving) ALL forum sessions without issues in understanding or use.

Why would I want to save *all* sessions? The one I'm using and yesterday's backup file is enough.

---------------
I do thank you though. Your instructions were educational.

How about this instead?
1) Boot Ventoy.
2) Choose the GRUB2 iso
3) Boot the Puppy ISO with it.
Now *that behaves like a real Puppy.

>BTW: As I mentioned again, this does NOT 'fix' the problem you identify.

The 3-step method right above does. All partitions and drives show up in the save sesssion menu; even the Ventoy partition. Problem fixed by booting Puppy with Grub2 through Ventoy. Yeah, it's hoop-jumping. I know, But .. after Puppy boots, you have a normal setup with the Ventoy drive being mountable and writable. Problem fixed.

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Re: How to create a Frual Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by Clarity »

@HarveyH
Please post the root layout of your Ventoy partition #1.

My partition #1 looks like this:

Code: Select all

/mnt/sdf1
├── BOOTISOS
├── System Volume Information
└── ZM4_F96CE

Curious

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Re: How to create a Frual Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by wiak »

Ventoy actually has an inbuilt option for booting normal frugal installs, which works well with save persistence without hoops and efforts. Seems not a lot of people know about it so waste a lot of time with unnecessary grub or iso manipulation tricks. All unnecessary.

I posted about Ventoy provided method for directly booting normal frugal installs last January. You can find the post and Ventoy's official method here:

viewtopic.php?p=110016#p110016

It is straightforward and simple. No iso or img booting is required.

I already referred Clarity to that info a long time ago. Perhaps I need to repost same as top of own howto thread so people can more easily find it.

https://www.tinylinux.info/
DOWNLOAD wd_multi for hundreds of 'distros' at your fingertips: viewtopic.php?p=99154#p99154
Αξίζει να μεταφραστεί;

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Re: How to create a Frual Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by Clarity »

@wiak +1 :thumbup:

A thread could be set to show member-methods this forum has found to work for all of the forum's distros. This way, in a single thread location of boot launcher methods, we show members the methods we KNOW work "EASILY" and work well with the understanding that's important to give users knowledge of the fast-paths to desktops.

Several forum members have found worthwhile methods to boot forum distros that are universally simple for each of the family of distros this forum offers. ... particularly with the Ventoy extensions as well.

I have used almost ALL of the 'launcher' methods members presented on the forum since 2019 for each of the forum's USB "Distro LAUNCHERS"; namely ISObooter, SG2D, and Ventoy. I also have a composite USB which allows members to user to choose either of the 3 to boot any distro from its ISO file. And for at least one of this forum's distros (@fatdog ), I can boot from bare-metal, VM, or via PXE from this common implementation. ALL other forum distros have been verified and results presented on the forum showing both efforts and findings for viewing by both its developers and forum members of the distros booting from bare-metal and KVM.

The reports are a step so members know what is working for the distros they choose. And the reports are accompanied with the actual KVMs used for producing the results seen in the reports.

Advantage: The use of the launchers allow users like me to go from download to a frugal forum desktop in 1 minute in my cases for a majority of the ISO files developers offer on the forum with no steps in-between. ... thus NO USER INTERACTIONS! :!:

Hopefully all of this can be helpful to community members and users who want something simple in getting to desktop arrivals.

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Re: How to create a Frual Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by HarveyH »

wiak wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:29 am

Ventoy actually has an inbuilt option for booting normal frugal installs,

I went to try it and discovered that the latest Windows update locks the system to only boot Windows. Ventoy (and Linuxes I'd assume) now pop up a system warning about bad shims and "something went terribly wrong". Its a known problem and requires disabling Secureboot (NOPE!) and running a Linux command to clear the Secureboot keys (NUH UH!), then re-enabling Secure boot and praying that Windows will boot again. I've heard many horror stories about having to reinstall Windows after dis/re-enabling Secure boot.
My Puppy days are over. Thank you for all the help, youse guys.

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Re: How to create a Frual Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by rockedge »

HarveyH wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2024 5:34 pm

I went to try it and discovered that the latest Windows update locks the system to only boot Windows..........

This is a nightmare come true.

This is using UEFI and secure boot on a machine dual booting Windows 11 and other OS's like Puppy Linux and now no dual booting at all? Not even via USB drive?

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Re: How to create a Frual Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by HarveyH »

rockedge wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2024 7:32 pm
HarveyH wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2024 5:34 pm

I went to try it and discovered that the latest Windows update locks the system to only boot Windows..........

This is a nightmare come true.

This is using UEFI and secure boot on a machine dual booting Windows 11 and other OS's like Puppy Linux and now no dual booting at all? Not even via USB drive?

Yes, USB drives too. Anything with a UEFI on it. If this happens to your system, it refuses to boot anything that is not certified Microsoft WIndows (10 or 11). The UEFI displays a scary error message and powers off the computer.

"Verifiying shim SBAT data failed: Security Policy Violation Something has gone seriously wrong: SBAT self-check failed: Security Policy Violation"

From what I have been able to figure out, yes (and no and maybe) it can be fixed. Works for some but not others.

It seems that:
The latest WIndows update (I'm still on 22H2, but I did install the latest updates that showed up), seems to, according to what I read, lock the UEFI into booting only Windows.

It seems that:
If this happens, the problem can be fixed (maybe) by setting your UEFI MOK keys to virgin state. People say this works, but you need to disable Secure Boot, run some Linux command in Ubuntu that wipes out the keys or clears the SBAT (I dunno) and sets everything up in virgin condition, then re-enable Secure Boot. Then MAYBE you can install MOK keys again and all is well.

-----------------------------------
Disclaimer:
This is what I understand after Googling that error message. I tend to believe it because yeah, I did just install a huge update the night before this happened and all the reports on Google mention this exact error message. Windows boots fine, but anything like LInux or Ventoy else is immediately rejected with "Verifiying shim SBAT data failed: Security Policy Violation Something has gone seriously wrong: SBAT self-check failed: Security Policy Violation" and then it shuts down.

It can maybe be fixed, they say, but I am a chickensh*t about borking my system forever. I am NOT touching my Secure Boot and wiping/reburning my UEFI stuff. Nope! Too bad. So sad. If my system forever refuses to boot afterwards, I am f***ed. I shall live without bare-metal booting non-Windows OSes on this notebook. When I get my new computer, I may mess around with this one and maybe install only Linux Mint.

Anyway, Google it yourself and make your own decision.

"Verifiying shim SBAT data failed: Security Policy Violation Something has gone seriously wrong: SBAT self-check failed: Security Policy Violation"

https://github.com/ventoy/Ventoy/issues/2814

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Re: How to create a Frugal Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by HarveyH »

It seems you can also replace the shim with one from another package and then rename stuff and reinstall MOK keys and ... A lot of trouble, but safer than turning off secure boot. I didn't try it.

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Re: How to create a Frugal Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by rockedge »

Yeah, I read some documentation on shim replacement and registering new keys but seems like a major hassle.
I use legacy boot as I mentioned before as much as possible.

Looking to see if the update gets patched from Microsoft.

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Re: How to create a Frugal Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by HarveyH »

rockedge wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 12:57 am

Looking to see if the update gets patched from Microsoft.

We shall see.

People, if you don't get this problem then \O/. Just be warned that it *can* happen after a Windows update.

@rockedge

I wouldn't bet money on MS "fixing" this. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this was done on purpose. They don't *want* people using anything except Windows.

Update:
Well well look what I found:
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/m ... x-systems/

" to block Linux boot loaders unpatched against the CVE-2022-2601 GRUB2 Secure Boot bypass vulnerability"

Let's hope the Ventoy Team gets on this.

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Re: How to create a Frugal Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by HarveyH »

I tried burning the new Linux Mint ISO right to a USB drive and it booted. Seems that not *all* dual-booting is blocked.
I'm going to see if a Rufus-created USB boots.

Results:
Linux Mint:
Burn ISO to flashdrive - Boots
Use Rufus - Boots

Bookwormpup64:
Wont boot no matter what.

Ventory;
Wont boot no matter what.

So, either MS fixes this, Ventory and/or Rufus updates to get around this, or we just don't dual-boot anything but official MS-recognized Linuxes such as Mint or (I assume) the Debians/Ubuntus.

Conclusion: Dual-booting isn't 100% out, you just have to use the Linuxes that MS allows you to use. (or disable Secure boot I guess).

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Re: How to create a Frugal Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by mikewalsh »

Whoooah.

I am SO glad I kicked Windows into touch a decade ago. It doesn't provide anything I need.....and for me, Puppy has covered ALL the bases for many years. :thumbup:

But hey! everybody's needs are different. We just have to work around stuff like the above, I guess...

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Re: How to create a Frugal Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by bigpup »

@HarveyH

Bookwormpup64:
Wont boot no matter what.

will it boot if secure boot is disabled?

The things you do not tell us, are usually the clue to fixing the problem.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be older.
This is not what I expected :o

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Re: How to create a Frugal Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by HarveyH »

@bigpup

In theory, anything will boot with secure boot disabled and it is recommended by nearly every webpage I have seen.

If you mean will it boot on my system with SB off, I will not disable it on the chance that I may bork Windows 11. There have been a few stories of disabling SB and Win11 never booting again. When I get my new desktop and this notebook becomes the "stuff testing rig", I will try that.I like Bookwormpup64 very much but not enough to take a chance on borking my system.

TL;DR: Yes, if you disable secure boot, then anything should boot just fine. It's having SB on that is causing the trouble.

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Re: How to create a Frugal Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by HarveyH »

Add Knoppix 9.1 to the "working list", but that OS is so old you can't even sudo apt update. The repositories are gone.
I give up for now. The original subject was "Ventoy" and that doesn't work in Secure Boot mode anymore.
Perhaps the next version (1.1.0?) will. I *think* all they have to do is replace the [whatever it is that the latest Win update sees as "bad"] to a "good" [whatever is it].

Better yet, give BookwormPup64 (and EasyOS) a good [whatever it is], and we can toss Ventoy out the window.

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Re: How to create a Frugal Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by HarveyH »

I've been digging deeply into the Interwebs to find a fix for this. I mean Ventoy being rejected as a legitimate boot.
IIUC, it seems that the "evil update" examines your system for some evidence that you dual-boot Linux (maybe in the UEFI?). If it sees none, it assumes that you will never use Linux and locks it out "for your safety".

Official Ubuntus/Debians and KNOPPIX are still acceptable (A Rufus-created or imaged to a USB stick Mint boots just fine*), but others are not. Since Ventoy and Puppy are "weirdos", they are locked out from booting. The solution seems to be that the Linux must be officially accepted by MS**.

I could be wr... wr... wrong, but this seems to be the case.

* But not MX, Puppy or some of the others.

** Have a proper shim/thingie/whatever.

Or just disable Secure Boot and go for it. Point is, until they fix it, SB locks out all but Debian or Ubuntu.

Last edited by HarveyH on Sat Aug 31, 2024 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to create a Frugal Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine

Post by HarveyH »

I tried something sneaky. Seeing that (a Rufus-created) Mint *does* boot and the files are accessable, I did some surgery on the Rufus USB. I added Puppy in a folder and created a Grub entry for it.

Did it work? Yes and no. The menu was there, but when I chose Puppy, it gave me that blue screen thing "Policy prohibits this from booting [OK]" and that's it. So yeah, it did kinda work, but then was rejected like a real Puppy would be, since pressing return never gives you a chance to add a MOK key,

I am getting closer though. In theory, I *did* fool it. I got past the problem. Puppy *is* booting, but only like a real Puppy does. IE: "I see the OS, but I aint booting it", says Windows.
I guess it's up to Ventoy to fix their shim thingie.

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Re: How to create a Frugal Install on a Ventoy System . Seems to work fine VENTOY FIXED!

Post by HarveyH »

Haha hoho and heehee. I DOOD IT! Ventoy (and Bookwormpup64) is working again even though I have the
Window update that broke Ventoy. You are going to spaz when you see how easy it is to fix. No need to disable Secure Boot.

1) Get an ISO of the newest Ubuntu. Linux Mint doesn't have the mmx64.efi file.

2) Copy BOOTX64.efi and mmx64.efi from EFI/BOOT folder to the VTOYEFI partition EFI/BOOT folder. The partition can be made visible in Windows by using Storage Settings or I suppose This PC/Manage to give it a drive letter. You can extract the files from the ISO with Winrar. Watch the filenames. BOOTX64.efi needs to be just that.

3) Rename grub.efi in /EFI/BOOT as grubx64.efi.

You may kiss my big toe now. lol

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