PuppyLinux Bootable Stick Interferes With Main Drive

[JusGellin]

This is resolved and can be fixed.

First off I need something to tell me what GRUB version I have once I'm booted up. Is there a
command line to give this to me?

Second the iso version for BookwormPup64.10.0.7 has GRUB version 2.03 and needs to be updated to 2.06
I verified I'm using the latest version of that iso that installs GRUB 2.03.

the update mentioned earlier is for 2.03 and 2.04 to 2.06
viewtopic.php?t=10028

Third, if an older version is updated, it will still have the old menu items that will frugal install the GRUB 2.03 for an install to USB.
It should be updated to the GRUB 2.06 if so. BookwormPup64_10.0.7.iso needs to have its menu items for the frugal install updated
to the GRUB 2.06 version also.

Bottom line, the GRUB version needs to be 2.06 on the computer's internal drive to eliminate the problem this topic addresses.

But it can be misleading what version it is using. Let me try to explain.
When I installed BookwormPup64_10.0.7 onto the laptop using Ventoy to run the iso,
the GRUB version menu that came up from Ventoy was 2.06, which looks correct.
But it turns out that is the GRUB that Ventoy is using not what will go on the laptop.

After the install, it mislead me to thinking it was ok because I didn't see a need to look when it first came up after that.
So I went through a lot of unnecessary work trying to resolve this by seeing that dual booting with a mainline Linux
didn't have this problem. That's why this topic went so long.

In any event it would be best to have the iso updated to GRUB 2.06 including the menus for buiding a frugal pup.
But you can update an existing system using the link above to update it.

Thank you @williwaw for helping me figure out what was the problem.

[JusGellin]

It looks like other puppys have this problem as well because of having GRUB 2.03.
I installed F96-CE_4 and see it does the same thing.
I used the update and it corrected it to GRUB 2.06. Then it worked ok.

So will this GRUB update work for any puppy?

Thanks

[williwaw]

It looks like other puppys have this problem as well because of having GRUB 2.03.
I installed F96-CE_4 and see it does the same thing.
I used the update and it corrected it to GRUB 2.06. Then it worked ok.

Thanks

not sure why (all or just some?) of your laptops are experiencing these boot problems. Is it just a particular model?

Bootloaders are software typically installed to your disk and are mostly independent of the OS you are booting. In the case of a cd/dvd boot, the iso will have its own boot loader.
When you boot an iso from a disk, you will be using whats installed on the disk, be it ventoy or grub2. If you set your disk up with diskpup the boot loader code in the iso will not be accessed. I do not know of any command to give info about what boot loader was used to boot, always just looked at the boot screen.

the boot update was supplied by the dev of frugalpup and the command to untar it to that particular location is correct for the way frugalpup locates its boot files.

So will this GRUB update work for any puppy?

if you use frugalpup it will. you can replace an existing bootloader with another, just be carefull with installers that offer to reformat your disk if working with partitions you want to save data on

[JusGellin]

not sure why (all or just some?) of your laptops are experiencing these boot problems. Is it just a particular model?

I did this testing on an HP laptop and this is the first time from using puppy linux that it is booting properly with the puppy linux on a USB .
My other two models seem to fail the same like the HP did - Dell and Lenovo laptops.
But you have more experience to know what to expect.

Do you think I may be doing something wrong for what I'm seeing?
Is there some way to make sure I'm seeing this correctly?

You mentioned bootloaders from cd/dvd. I'm not using cd/dvd's, I'm using a USB stick with Ventoy on it for the installs to the internal hard drive and the USB stick.

I'm going to try the same things on the other two laptops to see.

[williwaw]

Do you think I may be doing something wrong for what I'm seeing?

its possible you are doing something different from what others do, but it is also useful to test and mention your results if there is something that could be fixed.
this seems less and less like a bookworm specific problem, and the only reason I mention cd/dvd is because that would be the only likely usage where something in the bookworm iso would be the issue.

I have an older hp that has a bios that operates with a logic I have not yet quite completely figured out, and sometimes others have reported problems with some machines......and duplicating the problem with more different machines machines will help track it down.

I'm using a USB stick with Ventoy on it for the installs to the internal hard drive and the USB stick.

when you say "for the installs" you mean that you have a ventoy stick with bookworm that you boot when using gparted, diskpup and updating grub?
you have not installed ventoy to the other USBs or drives you are using for testing?

If you have a free usb stick, try to use easy dd to make an EasyOs install to a dedicated USB stick and repeat the gparted > frugalpup/diskpup and puppy intstall on the troublesome internal drive. This should take ventoy out of the equasion.

https://easyos.org/install/how-to-write ... drive.html
https://distro.ibiblio.org/easyos/amd64 ... -amd64.img
you will have to install frugalpup to your easy USB
https://www.mediafire.com/file/me2y2dpr ... 1.pet/file
just click on the pet once easy is booted.

an additional step you can take is to totally wipe the troublesome internal drive before running gparted and diskpup with your puppy iso.

wipe the drive with the command
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdx status=progress
(substitute your drive letter with the x in sdx, and double check your choice of drive letters as there will be no "are you sure this will destroy all data" verification. this operation may take a long time, be patient)

and run the update to 2.06 once

not sure why (all or just some?) of your laptops are experiencing these boot problems. Is it just a particular model?

I did this testing on an HP laptop and this is the first time from using puppy linux that it is booting properly with the puppy linux on a USB .
My other two models seem to fail the same like the HP did - Dell and Lenovo laptops.
But you have more experience to know what to expect.

Is there some way to make sure I'm seeing this correctly?

You mentioned bootloaders from cd/dvd. I'm not using cd/dvd's,

I'm going to try the same things on the other two laptops to see.

[JusGellin]

I did some extensive testing and want to do it right.
This is what I did
3 different Laptops have same problem with BookwormPup64 isos:
Laptop 1 - Dell Inspiron 15 7000 Series Laptop with frugal BookwormPup_10.0.7
Laptop 2 - HP Pavillion x360 Convertible 11m-ap0xxx with frugal BookwormPup_10.0.7
Laptop 3 - Lenovo Ideapad 100S-11IBY with frugal BookwormPup_10.0.6

For the Laptops 1 and 2:
If a USB thumb drive containing a frugal Bookwormpup64_10.0.7 (made using e4StickPup in BW) is attached and the computer is
booted, the thumbdrive only boots even if the internal drive is selected or the USB boot is disabled from
the computer.
Only if the computer's internal drive gets the GRUB update, will it work properly where if the internal drive
is selected to boot it will come up; if the USB boot is disabled, the inernal drive will come up.

Laptop 3 is a special case. It also will only boot to the USB (also made using e4StickPup in BW) if that is connected to it.
This computer uses a 32 bit efi for booting and a 64bit system). When I applied the GRUB update, it is no longer bootable from the internal drive
@gyrog worked with me earlier this year (he has one also) to get it to work with Bookwormpup64. It must have another problem in accepting the GRUB update.

When the Ventoy booted up, it seemed to use GRUB 2.06, but when the BookwormPup64_10.0.7 iso was installed and rebooted, it had GRUB 2.03.
So to me, it seems the iso installs BW with a GRUB 2.03.

So with my three different laptops, it seems they all have the same problem for booting only to a frugal BW USB thumbdrive when it is connected to the computer during boot.
This seem to also be a physical security risk because if a frugal pup USB is connected to a computer with frugal BW and is booted, it can take over the computer even if the computer has
disabled USB boot.

But at least for the first two, once the GRUB is updated to 2.06, they worked properly like they should.

So I can fix this for my computers but am concerned that this problem could unknowingly be there for someone else.
Like me before I was unaware of this problem because if I wanted to use a frugal BW USB I would plug it into the computer, turn the computer on
and select the USB, thinking it worked.
Then when I was done with it, I would unplug the USB and think it was ok because the computer came up.
It was only when I left the USB connected I saw that I had a problem.

@williwaw
To answer some of your questions:

when you say "for the installs" you mean that you have a ventoy stick with bookworm that you boot when using gparted, diskpup and updating grub?
you have not installed ventoy to the other USBs or drives you are using for testing?

I'm using e4StickPup from Bookworm's menu which partitions and build the frugal install on the USB stick. I wasn't using Ventoy for this testing.

If you have a free usb stick, try to use easy dd to make an EasyOs install to a dedicated USB stick and repeat the gparted > frugalpup/diskpup and puppy intstall on the troublesome internal drive. This should take ventoy out of the equasion.

I may try that to see if there is a difference, but I'm getting the same version of GRUB 2.03 on the computers and the frugal install to the USB using Ventoy.

[dimkr]

AFAIK Ventoy applies some patched to components like GRUB, so identical or different GRUB versions may lead to wrong explanations for this problem.

[JusGellin]

AFAIK Ventoy applies some patched to components like GRUB, so identical or different GRUB versions may lead to wrong explanations for this problem.

Could it be that Ventoy is causing the problem?
What could I use in Linux to run an iso on a computer instead of Ventoy to see how it reacts?

Thanks

[williwaw]

What could I use in Linux to run an iso on a computer instead of Ventoy to see how it reacts?

Thanks

grub2 can boot iso without anything additional. the grub.cfg needs approiate stanzas. see
viewtopic.php?p=94368#p94368

[williwaw]

maybe not an issue with your testing, but could help.....

the portion of the menuentry line in a grub2 stanza between the quotes could be anything you like, for instance
menuentry "Puppy dpupbw64 10.0.7" {
could just as well be
menuentry " test entry 4 of 10.0.7 on hp internal disk" {

having customized entries may be useful if you are using identical enrties on multiple devices and not shure which device is actually trying to boot when setting up bios boot orders or making choices from bios disk selectors

[dimkr]

Could it be that Ventoy is causing the problem?
What could I use in Linux to run an iso on a computer instead of Ventoy to see how it reacts?

Considering the complexity of Ventoy (many dependencies, old and patched), I'd say any attempt to isolate the problem must begin with eliminating Ventoy. ISO images are another source of complexity and variety, because they can be iso9660, with extensions, BIOS-bootable, hybrid ... so I'd take them out of the equation too.

(In general, I'm really against the use of ISO images for technical reasons and because I find them limiting and annoying to use compared to a 'proper' installation of a distro)

[williwaw]

ISO images are another source of complexity and variety, because they can be iso9660, with extensions, BIOS-bootable, hybrid ... so I'd take them out of the equation too.

(In general, I'm really against the use of ISO images for technical reasons and because I find them limiting and annoying to use compared to a 'proper' installation of a distro)

agreed, a "proper" install, with the tools needed would be the better way to go for eliminating or verifying bookworm and frugalpup as the source of the problems.
kinda my thought when suggesting the use of an EasyOs USB.

[JusGellin]

I verified the same results I had before and without using Ventoy.

I'm using qemu that has BookwormPup64_10.0.7 installed directly from the iso.
From this I plugged in a USB stick to make a frugal install on it from BW menu > Setup > FrugalPup Installers > e4StickPup.
Then using this USB stick booted on the laptop, I re-partitioned the internal drive and installed BookwormPup64_10.0.7 by using menu > Setup > FrugalPup Installers > DiskPup

When either the internal drive or the USB is booted up, both show they have GRUB version 2.03 on them.

If I connect the USB to the laptop and leave it connected, it always boots to the USB.
If the internal drive is selected by the computer menu, it boots to the USB
If the computer bios disables the USB boot - it boots to the USB
The only time you can again boot to the internal drive is if the USB is disconnected.
This means that even if the bios has disabled the USB boot, that this can be overridden by plugging in a USB like this. This is a physical security risk.

To make this work like it normally should, I ran the GRUB update patch on the internal drive.
This makes the GRUB version 2.06
Now it works properly whether the USB is plug in or not on boot like it should.

If the USB is connected to the computer when it is booted:
If the internal drive is selected, the internal drive boots
If the USB drive is selected, the USB drive is selected.
If the USB drive is disabled, only the internal drive boots.

This happens on all three of my different brand laptops.

[williwaw]

I verified the same results I had before and without using Ventoy.

I'm using qemu that has BookwormPup64_10.0.7 installed directly from the iso.
From this I plugged in a USB stick to make a frugal install on it from BW menu > Setup > FrugalPup Installers > e4StickPup.
Then using this USB stick booted on the laptop, I re-partitioned the internal drive and installed BookwormPup64_10.0.7 by using menu > Setup > FrugalPup Installers > DiskPup

When either the internal drive or the USB is booted up, both show they have GRUB version 2.03 on them.

If I connect the USB to the laptop and leave it connected, it always boots to the USB.
this is normal if the boot order in your BIOS boot setup has USB before the internal drive
If the internal drive is selected by the computer menu, it boots to the USB
Do you bring up this computer menu by pressing an F key during powerup? Maybe the menu is better described as a disk selection menu supplied by the BIOS?
If the computer bios disables the USB boot - it boots to the USB
How are you doing this disabling?
The only time you can again boot to the internal drive is if the USB is disconnected.
This means that even if the bios has disabled the USB boot, that this can be overridden by plugging in a USB like this. This is a physical security risk.

To make this work like it normally should, I ran the GRUB update patch on the internal drive.
This makes the GRUB version 2.06
Now it works properly whether the USB is plug in or not on boot like it should.

If the USB is connected to the computer when it is booted:
If the internal drive is selected, the internal drive boots
If the USB drive is selected, the USB drive is selected.
If the USB drive is disabled, only the internal drive boots.

This happens on all three of my different brand laptops.

If all three machines are fixed with updating to 2.06, I would post something in the frugalpup dev thread referencing this test result.
Not all who come to the forum do such dilligent testing

[JusGellin]

@williwaw
Thanks for looking that over.
I'll post this over at frugalpup dev thread.

By doing this kind of thing, helps me get used to working with this and trying different utilities.
I really like using DiskPup and e4StickPup to make frugal install so quick and easy compared to how I was doing it before which took a lot more effort and time.

But I was wondering if another puppy would have the same problems.
So I did the same thing with FossaPup64CE.
I installed this on another USB stick and then installed it on my internal drive.
When the GRUB menus came up, they also showed version 2.03
Sure enough if I connected the FossaPup64CE stick and booted, only the USB would come up.
I connected my other USB stick that had BookwormPup64_10.0.7 on it.
That also would make the computer only boot to the USB.

So I tried updating the internal drive GRUB like I did with BW.
It didn't change anything and continued to have the same USB problems. The GRUB version stayed at 2.03

It looks like that GRUB update is only for BookwormPup.

I tried this on both of my main laptops with the same results.

[JusGellin]

@williwaw

If all three machines are fixed with updating to 2.06, I would post something in the frugalpup dev thread referencing this test result.

How do I find that area?
Thanks

[bigpup]

Frugalpup Installer topic:
viewtopic.php?t=337

[williwaw]

So I tried updating the internal drive GRUB like I did with BW.
It didn't change anything and continued to have the same USB problems. The GRUB version stayed at 2.03

It looks like that GRUB update is only for BookwormPup.

If grub is installed to the fat32 partition as normal for an UEFI boot, it shouldnt matter what puppy version is being booted. either the update worked and you are looking at the wrong screen or perhaps the update command failed. Please see the following post.

could you be looking at different versions of grub on different devices and making assumptions about what was supposed to boot?

just curious if when you run the frugalpup installer, are you offered to select either or or both about mbr and uefi?

and have you set your bios to boot exclusively from uefi or exclusively from legacy (or csm) or some sort of priority or fallback?

[williwaw]

Making a manual frugal install (or an additional frugal install) is quite easily done once your partitioning is completed and the bootloader installed. in a nutshell, you add a folder and create a new stanza for grub.cfg, open the new iso and copy the contents over to the new folder. This manual procedure lets you add puppies without running installers and possibly messing with existing partitions and bootloaders.

[JusGellin]

If grub is installed to the fat32 partition as normal for an UEFI boot, it shouldnt matter what puppy version is being booted. either the update worked and you are looking at the wrong screen or perhaps the update command failed. Please see the following post.
could you be looking at different versions of grub on different devices and making assumptions about what was supposed to boot?

When I did this I made sure I was only on the internal drive by removing any USB connected. I'll look a bit further.

just curious if when you run the frugalpup installer, are you offered to select either or or both about mbr and uefi?

I didn't see anything asked about that for DiskPup. But for the USB, there were two selections "StickPup -usb stick installer and f2StickPup - f2fs usb stick installer.
I believe I used the second on because it made two partitions.

and have you set your bios to boot exclusively from uefi or exclusively from legacy (or csm) or some sort of priority or fallback?

All three are set to uefi only.

[williwaw]

I'll look a bit further.

try
tar xvvf grub2.tar.gz --overwrite -C /mnt/sdXx
and make sure the partition with grub is mounted

[JusGellin]

First thing I did was copy each type for their efi directories and files and then did a diff command on them.
They compared except for the grub.cfg like you would expect.
So you were right I needed to make sure I mounted the fat32 partition then run the upgrade.

It's funny, I was really diligent to make sure the uefi drive was mounted when I did this for BW.
But definately wasn't when working with FossaPup.

When I did it this time, it worked. It upgraded the internal drive to GRUB 2.06 and the USB drives behaved and
worked like you would expect.

I'm glad you expained how puppys use the same efi partition.
It's so impressive to me how this is accomplished.

Thanks

[JusGellin]

@williwaw
When I did this, my third laptop, Lenovo Ideapad 100S-11IBY crashed when I tried doing the GRUB update.
I found I forgot how to reinstall the BW to it and just had an image backup for BW 10.0.6.

So I went back to try to figure out how to do this again and decided to write myself a procedure to do it.
I not only figured out how to install BW again, but why it crashed from the update.

This is one of those models back in 2016 that had a 32 bit UEFI and a 64 bit operating system.
To make it work, part of the problem was to remove the 64 bit files in /EFI/boot area and just leave the 32 bit parts.
This and a grub.cfg modification made it work again.

Then I was able to install the GRUB upgrade again with no problems
if I removed a new 64 bit file placed in that place again and confirmed that it prevented the problem that was stated in this topic for it as well.

Back when @gyrog helped figure out how to make this model work with a BW installed, I agreed to make a procedure
but never got around to do it.

Now I would like to do that. What's the best place and proper way to do this?

Thanks