Whats up in Puppy World

[Clarity]

This all began as an "attack vector" based upon a view I published as I supported another member's observation.

We have and never will live in a "perfect" world. I, and no one I know here, expects that and understands the substantive reasons "why"?

So in the Great One proclaiming his views that things are NOT perfect, thus only his direction is perfection is non-sense.

I maintain that there are some tools that can be used to exploit the massive compute power we have in many/most of the 64bit platforms we have in our hands today for a whole myriad of reasons and their benefit.

No one, here, with even a little understanding can derive benefit to things each of us may find useful where operating as safe as reasonable possible.

There is no one-way, only-way to address the benefits our PCs use can afford us in productivity and use.

This is NOT a war, for me, and yes I do understand the excuse for being argumentative with me. Hint within this last sentence: I am not a developer therefore I have no value. "But, I am ..."

[wanderer]

hi everyone

since everything in puppy world is of equal value
and a representative of our distro

we should have an example of each of the systems
to point people to
so they can try it
and get involved with its development

we have
correct me if im wrong

fatdog

easyos

classic woof-ce (bookwormpup)

dimkrs vanilla dpup

fredx181 debiandog ( bookworm-mklive )

wiaks firstrib

the only one i see missing is wiaks firstrib
wiak is there any version of firstrib you would suggest for the newbe


thanks

wanderer

[Chelsea80]

Hello All

OK, before I start, let me make it clear that the link below is very, very old. Starts 16 Oct 2010.

The reason I’m offering this link is because there is an expression of desire amongst the community to get our ‘picture’ of what Puppy is out to the wider user.

I have had a (quick) look at the many options on the home page. It does seem to be very well laid out. Please, have a look around and, bearing in mind the age of this link, I think you too will find it interesting. Those that have been using Puppy for many years might very well have a blast-from-the-past moment, or 2 or 3.

It would need to be read, updated as necessary and presented in a ’today’ version of what Puppy is. The person(s) willing to take on this task will have to be able to give the prospective user an informative read without being clouded with too much techy speak. This could lead to curiosity being tempted. Remember, every new convert would be a Puppy newbie.

I realise this would be a huge commitment to take on. So if a pick-and-mix approach was taken then perhaps it could be edited down to a manageable project. This could then be up-dated as required on a rolling basis. Perhaps with a ‘What’s New’ section.

I, unfortunately, do not posses the knowledge to take on this task. If I did then I wouldn’t be submitting this post. I would just get on and do it and then post it for comments.

I urge you to have a serious think as, I feel, we can entice more members to our community through this exercise and therefore more users of Puppy.

Even if you think that the above is a non-starter then I would still appreciate any constructive criticism.

So, at last, we get to the link:

https://web.archive.org/web/20101016230 ... nglish.htm

Thanks.

[Clarity]

... wiak is there any version of firstrib you would suggest for the newbe
...

This question is posed to @wiak, and I am not attempting to answer for him.

But, I offer this: There is a family of distro based upon his fabulous "FirstRIB" where several of this forum's developers have contributed to that utility service's advancement.

The outcome are the distros that are seen within the KL family of distros on this forum over the past several years.

A ton of useful development has come out of the work achieved by those developers as they have both contributed there while sharing useful contributions to the overall forum mission.

Hope this is helpful

[wanderer]

hi all

and speaking of vm and multiboot
and the idea a reliable testing platform across distros

would it be a good idea to choose
a distro neutral kernal and ramdrive
so that everyone could use it
and be assured it would boot

this would unify all the systems
and make the variable part the particular main system they are developing

wanderer

[rcrsn51]

@wanderer Are you going to deal with your Bookworm ethernet issue?

In the time you took to post these messages, you could have finished that problem.

[wanderer]

hi rcrsn51

i love you man
you are the voice of reason
(and i really appreciate you helping me get rid of the corepup thread which was an annoying loose end for me)

i am not working on that issue right now
for 2 reasons

1. first bookworm works on my laptop
which is what i use to build bookworm-live
because the dell does not have a hard drive
so there is no rush resolving the ethernet issue

2. i want to fully understand the bookworm-live script first
so i am reading it again and again
every few minutes
so in the time period which i also made these posts
i have read the bookworm-live script 4 times

i feel you guys have given me all i need to follow up
which i greatly appreciate
i know you like to resolve issues quickly
but i have limited abilities
and have to do this in a methodical manner

wanderer

[rcrsn51]

so there is no rush resolving the ethernet issue

Here is a life lesson for you. Don't ask for help if you aren't going to act promptly on the help you get.

[wanderer]

ok rcrsn51

i know it annoys you
but no offense meant

peace brother

wanderer

[wanderer]

hi all

so now back to the two questions i asked

1. what firstrib distro could we recommend to newbees

2, does it make sense to have a distro neutral kernel and ramdrive that everyone could use

wanderer

[dimkr]

a distro neutral kernel

The distros in this forum (minus those that use the Debian kernel) use very similar kernels. IMO the dpup kernels are the best candidates for use by everyone because they're built from the Debian kernel with only ~130 configuration changes (out of 10k+ lines) needed for a distro like Puppy. Debian makes the hard decisions so the kernel is less likely to miss a driver or have something experimental and dangerous enabled by mistake

ramdrive that everyone could use

This won't happen because the distros in this forum use very different initrd implementations and things that happen after initrd finishes its job make many assumptions about the state of the system at switch_root time. Unifying initrd implementations almost entails unifying all build systems and collapsing everything into one distro.

[fredx181]

....
i want to fully understand the bookworm-live script first
so i am reading it again and again
every few minutes
so in the time period which i also made these posts
i have read the bookworm-live script 4 times

Why ? What for ?

i feel you guys have given me all i need to follow up
which i greatly appreciate
i know you like to resolve issues quickly
but i have limited abilities
and have to do this in a methodical manner

If the solution we gave you isn't easy enough, just tell us.
And yes, in general it's annoying when a question is asked and someone doesn't do anything with the given solution.
edit: and in your case I don't understand because you seem very enthusiastic about the "mkilve" project, gives me the feeling that you are often "just talking".

1. what firstrib distro could we recommend to newbees

Perhaps KLV-Airedale ? (Void based) viewforum.php?f=191
Or: KLA (Arch based) viewforum.php?f=193

[wanderer]

hi fredx181 and rcrsn51

first i want to thank you again
for the help that you provided
when i asked for possible solutions to the ethernet issue

second i want to thank you
for making what i consider to be a very significant and useful creation
bookworm-live
which i am very enthusiastic about

third i would like to apologize again
for my tardiness in fully testing your advice
i had no intention of offending either one of you

in explanation of why i am delaying testing

in order to do this at this time
i have to completely shut down the computer that i use for my main tasks
which i never usually shut down
because it causes problems for me
as i need it for other tasks on a virtually constant and ongoing basis

i would then have to test what you suggested
and this would mean that my main computer was not available
during this time

i would then have to completely set up my main computer again
which is a somewhat involved process

that is why i am using a laptop
that does not have the ethernet problem
and i do not need for other tasks
to build and study bookworm-live

so at this time i do not have the opportunity
to conveniently test your suggestions

i will in the future however
and will report to you

luckily the script is so well written
it is unlikely i will have to ask for help again

wanderer

[wanderer]

and thanks guys for your answers to the 2 questions i asked

wanderer

[wanderer]

hi all

i think its important to present all the various systems on the forum equally

for that reason we should have an example of each system to suggest to newbees and oldbees alike

so they have a starting point to examine the merits of each

fredx181 gave 2 possible firstrib examples

i know nothing of firstrib

which one should it be

wanderer

[cobaka]

Hello all:

What's going on in my Puppy world?
I'm a klutzy, Puppy fan, running 'out of the box' Puppies on (a) a 12 year old (wonderfully reliable) desktop and (b) a 20 year old Dell laptop.
This laptop is so inelegant I'm embarrassed to be seen carrying it by young student-types at the uni. They all have modern, slim notebooks.
Yes, they all have modern slim notebooks, but I'll bet a dollar to a elephant that "make" on my PC compiles just as fast as the "make" on the modern slim notebook.

The point to be understood is that I'm definitely not running Puppy on a VM.
For a long time I ran a 32-bit Puppy on a 64-bit machine. I up-graded to the 64-bit Puppy when my banking system refused to talk to an older browser. Sad but true.
My Puppy is basic - but it works. edit When I use the word "basic" I mean "as supplied". It is everything I need out of the box. Not that it was ever in a box.

cobaka

[wanderer]

hi all

i am seeing a big problem emerging that must be addressed immediately

developers who are reserved ( which is an admirable personal quality )
are seeing the presentation of their work being pushed into the background

this is demotivating to very motivated people
that have given and are giving enormous amount of their time and energy to the puppy community

woof-ce is a difficult system to learn
but there are a few gurus who have mastered it
and they have produced and are producing the masterpieces that have made puppy great

we know that people are using what they make
and that everyone appreciates what they are doing
but we really don't know exactly what they are working on now

another big problem is our distrowatch candidate
the focus on only one distro
which is necessary so we don't confuse distrowatch
makes it appear that all the others are second class citizens

everyone must be kept aware that the single distrowatch candidate
is only for the convenience of distrowatch
and though it is a great distro
it doesn't define the entire puppy community

and that is why i have started this thread

if the developers could take a few minutes now and then
to keep everyone up to date on what they were doing
by posting on this thread
this would be a great benefit to everyone
and keep everything in perspective

otherwise i will probably have to start bugging people to tell me what they are doing

wanderer

[wanderer]

hi all

this is about woof-ce

the user does not care
about the build system used to build the distro he is using
( and is usually not even aware of it )

the only person that it matters to
is the developer using that system

is peebee happy with the system he is using to build bookwormpup32 ( classic woof-ce )
is radky happy with the system he is using to build bookwormpup64 ( classic woof-ce with some mods )

if they are
i assume they will continue to use these systems
to produce their magnificent work

however

i think it is unwise to rely on a build system
that is accessible to only a small minority of the people involved with the distro

what if we finally make peebee so angry that he simply disappears
woof-ce and puppy shall become ( pardon the pun ) a dead dog

continuing with that thought
i think its a bad idea to try to fix and develop a build system
that will remain accessible to only a small minority of the people involved with the distro

whether we push the improvements or not into woof-ce
nothing will change

we need an alternative build system
that is accessible to the entire community

luckily we dont even have to develop them
we have debiandog and firstrib

we need to develop these systems
and make puppy-like distros with them

which will be "official"
because the community says they are

wanderer

[wanderer]

thoughts anyone ?

wanderer

[Dry Falls]

Hi Wanderer.
Yes, I feel a bit left out. In twelve pages, lighthouse has no mention even though it has been continuously maintained since about 2009. Originally built with BarryK's woof2, it now has its own build scripts which depend on running a slackware-derived pup. That's probably the problem. Slaclware seems overly disrespected by the puppy community. Peebee and Norgo have done great work but I've long thought WoofCE needed a separate set of scripts to handle Slackware package management so it's more than just a date-sensitive snapshot. Lighthouse has this but also Mistfire's excellent ppm-mod3 for traditional puppy pet-management.

Not to tout my own thing, @RSH' Lazypuppy was my favourite because I've not seen a developer yet who matches his consideration for the user. I was sorry when Lazy went EOL. I think it was everything a puppy should be.

df

[wanderer]

hi dry falls

thank you so much for posting

that is exactly why i started this thread

people are working in the background
and have been working for years
on really fascinating and useful projects
and most community members don't even know they exist

if you are a developer or a user that wants to recommend a distro on the forum
please post what is going on with that project on this thread
so we all at least will know about it
and maybe can try it and get involved

and why cant it be an "official" distro
the community is the only entity that can decide

so dry falls
tell us more about this project
and whatever else you think we should consider

i for one have never even heard of it

wanderer

[fredx181]

Forum search for "lighthouse" : search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=lighthouse
Topics: Lighthouse64-900 viewtopic.php?t=10324 and Just-Lighthouse64-805/900 : viewtopic.php?t=5302

[wanderer]

and speaking of RSH

i remember all the great work you have done
hope you will pick it back up

what are you doing now ?
and what build system are you using ?

wanderer

[wiak]

12 pages on this thread now and a lot of people spending a lot of time writing posts here, and a similar number on the Puppy needing Distrowatch page, but...

I can't help but think that the real problem Puppy continues to have is nothing to do with Distrowatch. Rather it is maintenance of a reliable build system for it.

Do-ocracy only works if people are taking care of relevant matters, and no amount of talking gets the maintenance work done.

FirstRib build system is in good shape and maintenance regularly done. In fact that maintenance tends to be trivial since mainly just involves updating URLs to key components such as busybox and current distro primary and secondary repos.

DebianDog build system is probably in good shape too, with regular maintenance continuing to be done. Again that maintenance appears to me to be relatively straightforward, which is key to build system reliability.

Puppy on the other hand has an old somewhat convoluted build system very few understand or want to bother using. Apparently it contains lots of old code that needs changed/thrown out. Since it is touted as the only way to build an official Pup, woof-CE is not currently a great selling point for marketing on Distrowatch.

My feeling is thus, far too much (often rambling and irrelevant) talking, and not enough people actually looking at woof-CE inners and seeing for themselves if they can help improve it or change it entirely. Yes, I mean there are not enough people able or willing to do Puppy Linux build system development at the moment, despite the occasional thread asking for people to help out. But there are certainly too many threads re: what 'could' or 'should' be done, with the usual repetitive large opinionated texts (and I include from myself... )

[wanderer]

hi wiak

i cannot agree with you more

we need a reliable build system
that is being actively maintained and developed
and is accessible for anyone to use

but wait a minute

we already have your firstrib

and fredx181s debiandog

both are reliable build systems
that are being actively maintained and developed
and are accessible for anyone to use

we actually don't have to ask anyone to do anything
you guys are already doing it

why don't we just build distros with your systems
accept them as "official" distros
by a vote on the forum
and include them as representative distros
on distrowatch

alongside those built with woof-ce
and other systems
like lighthouse

they all are built by the puppy community

the people that can and want to use woof-ce
can continue to use it
they are certainly doing a great job with it

and the rest of us can use the build systems of our choice

wanderer

[Keef]

Somehow I am reminded of the Oozlam bird.

[BologneChe]

@wiak

The limits of Do-ocracy are simply subject to humankind. Each group follows a progression, reaches a plateau then the descent arrives. It is often the ego of the group members that contributes to the descent.

[wanderer]

hi keef very funny
i always had heard there were unusual animals in Australia ( the platypus kangaroo etc )

however

actually everything has already been solved
it just takes time for everyone to accept the obvious

that the distro can be built with what ever system we want
because the community decides what we want to consider "official"

so the process is simple
someone builds a distro
with whatever system they want to use
and if the community votes it should be presented as an "official" distro
and is eligible to go on distrowatch
it is

the only caveat is if the developer doesn't want it to be considered

the next step is for people
to nominate distros that they think fit the bill

i nominate debiandog bookworm ( unless fredx181 says no )

wiak do you have a firstrib nominee

it looks like lighthouse should be considered

bookworm64 and bookworm32
will be the distrowatch candidate for at least 1 year

and then the community will have to vote
should they be upgraded
or should another distro be chosen

etc

wanderer

[wiak]

Sorry, but Slackware cannot suddenly say: let's vote to use Debian for next Slackware release. Yes I appreciate that these do not share a forum. However, I do not think it an appropriate or clever idea to remove the existence of a distro through replacing it with a seperate distro be that Debiandog or Kennel Linux.

It is a different matter if the shared forum chose say to focus its marketing on different forum distro, but not by calling the other forum distro "Puppy"!!!

I will also add that FirstRib is primarily a build system with its own initrd. It just so happens that the current releases of the forum distro "Kennel Linux" chose to use FirstRib build system, which I first discussed on old murga forum.

[wanderer]

hi wiak

im not calling anything puppy

im just says that any distro created by members of the forum
can be considered as a distro created by members of the forum

there is no entity that has the authority to decide
except the forum

wanderer