Dual boot Frugal Pup on MXLinux PC (kind of solved....)

[bambuko]

I have MX Linux (23.3) PC, to which I want to add Frugal Puppy (BookwormPup64).
All went well, apart from booting.
I have Frugal Pup in it's own directory, in it's own partition (sda3):

Screenshot_20240614_112113.png (57.89 KiB) Viewed 1303 times

but... all attempts to add Puppy boot to sda1 ended in failures
PC defaults to MX without any options for Puppy
Can someone, please advise/recommend best way to do it?

This is what I have tried:

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[bambuko]

and continued:

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[bigpup]

So installing that boot loader did not make an entry for both MX and bookwormpup64?

Puppy does have this boot loader installer you could try using to make a new boot loader install.
Grub2config
viewtopic.php?p=29703#p29703

It tries to find all operating systems on the drive and make a boot menu with entries for all it finds.
But can not for sure say it always can get it correct.
Other Linux OS's are always changing how they boot.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the problem with other Linux installs and the boot loader they use.

One choice is to make a manual boot loader menu entry for Puppy in whatever boot loader is being used.

Look on sda1 partition where the boot loader files are.

It would help if you post an image of what is on sda1, so we can see for sure what boot loader is being used.

Need to also know exactly how BookwormPup64 is installed as a frugal install.
It is installed on sda3 partition.
What is the exact location on this partition?

example:
In a directory(folder) named bookwormpup64, with all the bookwormpup64 files in it.
or
In a directory named Puppy and inside this is a directory named bookwormpup64.
Or some other names used?

What???

[bambuko]

and finally, ended up with:

Screenshot_7.png (16.6 KiB) Viewed 1285 times

[bambuko]

This is the problem with other Linux installs and the boot loader they use.

Sorry our posts have crossed the lines..
I think my edits (hopefully) answer your questions?

[bigpup]

Need to see what is in the boot directory(folder).

I seem to member someone else with same issue and MX.

I am looking for it's topic.

[bigpup]

Just to be sure what you are seeing.

When it first boots and the boot loader boot menu pops up.

What exactly are you seeing?

[bambuko]

boot folder coming in a sec,
in the meantime:

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[bambuko]

Need to see what is in the boot directory(folder).

Hopefully this is what you need?

Screenshot.png (74.33 KiB) Viewed 1266 times

[bigpup]

After that last image showing it booting.
It shows the boot menu entry does start the boot process.
Finding the files is the issue.

First need to know for sure if you did do a good frugal install.

How exactly did you do it?
Details?

We only know what you tell us.

Is the frugal install directory just on the sda3 partition or is it in another directory?

Best if the frugal directory is just on sda3 and not inside another directory.

[bigpup]

You are booting from a completely powered off/on condition?

This makes sure the memory is completely empty when starting up.

[bambuko]

I have used "FrugalPup Installer"
It is in it's own "frugal directory" in the dedicated sda3 partition.
I have previously installed it in the same fashion without dual boot and it was 100% successful.

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[bambuko]

You are booting from a completely powered off/on condition?
This makes sure the memory is completely empty when starting up.

yes, this is the way I do it

[bambuko]

update
(to test my sanity )

wiped everything out (including removing MX linux)
removed GPT, started again with MSDOS

Frugal puppy installs and works like a dream.

Next I will try to do the same but using GPT
(changing one thing at a time...)

BTW I was under impression that BookwormPup64 was OK with GPT....

and the latest update

same as above but with GPT instead of MSDOS
failure
same as previously, so it seems it is not MX that is a villain but GPT

bootinit.log

Code: Select all

pfix=trim is not a known boot parameter
0: PMEDIA=atahd PDRV=Puppy_linux PSUBDIR=/puppy_bookworm64 pfix=fsck,fsckp,trim
1: PDRV= P_BP_ID=Puppy_linux P_BP_FN=
2: ONE_PART= ONE_FN= ONE_MP=
Partition Puppy_linux not found.
6: ONE_PART=Puppy_linux ONE_TRY_FN= PDRV=

for reference, sounds like I am not the first one:
viewtopic.php?t=10096

[williwaw]

update
(to test my sanity :thumbup2: )

wiped everything out (including removing MX linux)
removed GPT, started again with MSDOS

Frugal puppy installs and works like a dream.

Next I will try to do the same but using GPT
(changing one thing at a time...)

BTW I was under impression that BookwormPup64 was OK with GPT....

and the latest update

same as above but with GPT instead of MSDOS
failure
same as previously, so it seems it is not MX that is a villain but GPT

bootinit.log

Code: Select all

pfix=trim is not a known boot parameter
0: PMEDIA=atahd PDRV=Puppy_linux PSUBDIR=/puppy_bookworm64 pfix=fsck,fsckp,trim
1: PDRV= P_BP_ID=Puppy_linux P_BP_FN=
2: ONE_PART= ONE_FN= ONE_MP=
Partition Puppy_linux not found.
6: ONE_PART=Puppy_linux ONE_TRY_FN= PDRV=

for reference, sounds like I am not the first one:
viewtopic.php?t=10096

there is another forumite also experiencing boot issues that also has an MX install on the disk.
thanks for testing, and perhaps @gyrog would wish to follow along.

Btw, although puppy can work just fine in a dedicated partition, it does not absolutely need one as it installs in a folder. preferbly in an ext partition.
It also does not need its own bootloader either and can be booted with existing bootloaders, that is, if you are dualbooting with another linux. (dual boots with windows are more complex)

for linux dual boots, it is frequently suggested to go with the the setup/bootloader that installs with your other linux. forum members here can help with getting the boot stanzas correct for puppy with the grub2 MX installs but, maybe not as helpful trouble shooting a MX boot failure if you install a second boot loader, and then consequently have problems with booting the other system.
EFI should be able to handle multiple bootloader installs, but sometimes stuff happens.

could you please share more about how you "removed GPT" or otherwise wiped your disk?

[bambuko]

....could you please share more about how you "removed GPT" or otherwise wiped your disk?

sure,
I have used Gparted to wipe the drive clear, followed by setting partition table , selecting either MSDOS or GPT (there are other choices available).
It was easy because I have PC to experiment with without having to worry about my data etc...

[bambuko]

For anybody else trying the same,
here is the solution, which I was able to follow with no problem
It works perfectly OK
I now have both MX and frugal Puppy on the same PC, dual booting:
https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.php ... 23#p779223

problem is not GPT (I was wrong)
but the need to modify grub manually (which I had no clue how to do )
linked video explains it very well

Thank you everybody who has tried to help me

[bigpup]

Only problem using this for the boot loader menu entry.

It is setup for booting from a live install on a cd. (pmedia=cd)

For an internal hard drive it should be pmedia=atahd

That acpi part of the entry you are using, could be required, because of acpi support the computer has or does not have.
Usually that is not needed.

It is very basic and has no entry to load the ucode.cpio to update the security features of the CPU.

This is an example grub.cfg entry made by the boot loader installer in Frugalpup Installer program.
I choose to install both type boot loaders msdos and the full set of UEFI ones.

This is on a external usb hard drive.
The boot loader is installed on the first partition of the drive along with all it's boot loader files.
The grub.cfg file is there and the one being used.

The frugal install in a folder named bookwormpup641006.
The uuid is the partition the frugal install is on.

menuentry "Puppy dpupbw64 10.0.6" {
insmod ext2
search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set=root b0f092c5-6a1c-4e04-b9d8-ddbeb91d4ab7
echo "Loading vmlinuz"
linux /bookwormpup641006/vmlinuz pmedia=usbhd pdrv=b0f092c5-6a1c-4e04-b9d8-ddbeb91d4ab7 psubdir=/bookwormpup641006 pfix=fsck,fsckp,trim TZ=EST5EDT,M3.2.0,M11.1.0
if [ -e /bookwormpup641006/local-initrd.gz ]; then
set local_rd=/bookwormpup641006/local-initrd.gz
else
set local_rd=
fi
if [ -e /bookwormpup641006/ucode.cpio ]; then
set ucode_rd=/bookwormpup641006/ucode.cpio
echo "Loading ucode.cpio and initrd.gz"
else
set ucode_rd=
echo "Loading initrd.gz"
fi
initrd $ucode_rd /bookwormpup641006/initrd.gz $local_rd
}

.
.

[bambuko]

Only problem using this for the boot loader menu entry.
It is setup for booting from a live install on a cd. (pmedia=cd)
For an internal hard drive it should be pmedia=atahd
That acpi part of the entry you are using, could be required, because of acpi support the computer has or does not have.
Usually that is not needed.
It is very basic and has no entry to load the ucode.cpio to update the security features of the CPU.

Thank you for this.
I shall pass these comments to the guy who helped me on MX forum

This is an example grub.cfg entry made by the boot loader installer in Frugalpup Installer program.
I choose to install both type boot loaders msdos and the full set of UEFI ones.

I was also using "boot loader installer in Frugalpup Installer program"
Clearly was doing something wrong
because the result was:

Code: Select all

pfix=trim is not a known boot parameter
0: PMEDIA=atahd PDRV=Puppy_linux PSUBDIR=/puppy_bookworm64 pfix=fsck,fsckp,trim
1: PDRV= P_BP_ID=Puppy_linux P_BP_FN=
2: ONE_PART= ONE_FN= ONE_MP=
Partition Puppy_linux not found.
6: ONE_PART=Puppy_linux ONE_TRY_FN= PDRV=

This is on a external usb hard drive.
The boot loader is installed on the first partition of the drive along with all it's boot loader files.
The grub.cfg file is there and the one being used.

Whilst I have been using internal hard drive, the rest of it (as far as I was concerned )
was exactly as you describe...
Must have messed up something, somewhere...

The frugal install in a folder named bookwormpup641006.
The uuid is the partition the frugal install is on.

menuentry "Puppy dpupbw64 10.0.6" ....................

That is helpful, I will play with it and report back
Thank you

[trawglodyte]

It is setup for booting from a live install on a cd. (pmedia=cd)

For an internal hard drive it should be pmedia=atahd

As you know, pmedia=*** does not necessitate the type of media, but rather sets options. (hence why we use pmedia=usbflash for pupmode13, regardless of whether you are booting from a flash-drive). pmedia=cd is the default in both grub.cfg files included in the BookwormPup64_10.0.6.iso THAT is why I made my template pmedia=cd. I'm attempting to follow the defaults set by the Puppy devs. However, I will change my menuentry template for Puppy to pmedia=atahd if you think it is somehow preferable.

Also, since we know that you do not set this based on the type of media you boot from, and because we know Puppy boots, saves, and so forth perfectly fine with pmedia=cd; could you please tell me exactly what Puppy does differently when booted with pmedia=cd vs pmedia=atahd?

[trawglodyte]

RE: pmedia=cd

This sticky says pmedia=cd searches for a save layer, it does not even mention pmedia=atahd. But this sticky contains bad info, because we know that pmedia options beginning with usb are not restricted to removable media as it states. --> viewtopic.php?p=52875#p52875

My goal is to have a usable standard menuentry people can reliably boot, based on generally agreed upon standards. I thought the grub.cfg files included w/ BookwormPup64_10.0.6 would be the place to get that. But now I'm searching through the Puppy forum and it seems that pmedia=atahd is the more widely accepted paramater, so I will change my menuentry to (hopefully) avoid confusion in the future. It's likely that pmedia=cd and pmedia=atahd do exactly the same thing, just as pmedia=usbflash and pmedia=ataflash do exactly the same thing. (if I recall correctly).

I'm telling people on all the manual frugals that the templates I've made will get them booted w/ practical default settings, but that they'll want to do some homework on all the optional parameters available to them.

I just really think there is a need for simple, step-by-step, fool-proof instructions. For people with an existing Linux OS and a UEFI system, I've done that with my videos and templates. You're welcome. Because when I was trying to figure it out, all I could find was bits and pieces, nobody giving anything complete, inaccurate and deprecated info. When i eventually realized just how easy it is to do a manual frugal from an existing Linux OS, and that it does exactly the same thing as the frugal installers without the need for a usb, going into BIOS, writing anything to the EFI parition, etc.... I wondered how all these people who tried to "help" me managed to make it so complicated?

Anyway, this is the result of reading tons and tons of info on the Puppy forum, trial and error installing frugals every way imaginable, all with the goal that maybe someone else would not have to do all that just to install a frugal. It is specifically for installing from an existing Linux on a UEFI system with gpt partition table. It's the best I could do for now, if someone can do it better, please do. If it doesn't go without saying, since there is no USB, BIOS boot order, etc... involved, you can literally follow along with the video from an existing system and get your frugal installed. https://odysee.com/@trawg:3/frugal-install:c

[bigpup]

pmedia=cd will generally work for any install, but it is not setup to correctly run the boot process for every type install.
So not best way to boot if not booting from a CD/DVD install.
It does first boot in pupmode 5 and change to pupmode 12 after booting using a save.
So this save operation will work for any type install, but may not be best for type drive device it is on.
During the boot process it is doing stuff only needed for a CD/DVD install.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The first time you boot.

Pmendia=cd is telling the boot process to boot as needed for an install on a CD/DVD.
How to find the files and a save if there is one to use.

It is used in the boot loaders provided in the Puppy version ISO, because the ISO is setup to provide all that is needed for a live install to a CD/DVD.

pmedia=cd causes the boot process to boot in pupmode 5.

This is running with no save and using a save ramdisk (part of memory) to function as the save.
All changes go into the save ramdisk.

On first shutdown and making a save file or folder.
Contents of the save ramdisk are put in the save you make.

Now when it boots using the save it is running in pupmode 12.
No save ram disk and directly writes to the save with any changes.

pmedia=cd also controls how the boot up process looks for the save file/folder.
Because the save could be on any drive any partition.
It is not going to be on the CD.
So searching for the save has been an issue with frugal installs, because they are not on a CD/DVD.
It searches too much.
Note:
A CD/DVD burned open can put a save on the CD/DVD at it will boot in pupmode 77
Still use a save ramdisk and update the save by writing it to the CD/DVD on shutdown.

pmedia=usbflash or pmedia=ataflash (any with flash) 1st boots the same way into pupmode 5. (applies to SSD drives)
Uses a save ramdisk and will always use a save ramdisk.
This is setup for installs on a USB flash drive to limit writes to the drive. Any flash type drives.

After making the save file/folder and booting using it.
It runs in pupmode13.
Changes first go into the save ramdisk and then go into the actual save file/folder when told to update the save.
When it boots and looks for the save.
It looks on the location the Puppy files are and usually will find the save there.
So it does not search all possible drives.
(however, in newest Puppies this may now allow putting the save on another drive, to be able to remove the USB after boot up)

pmedia=atahd or pmedia=usbhd sets up the boot process to boot for a drive that how many writes to is not a issue.
1st boots into pupmode 5 using a save ramdisk.
1st shutdown making a save.
2nd boot using the save is running in pupmode 12.
Writing to the save is directly as anything changes.

Yes you could make the pmedia= anything you want.
But making it correct for the type of drive booting from is making the boot process work correct for the type of drive.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Using pmedia=usbflash for any drive installed on.
Is a trick way to run in pupmode 13 and have the features of this mode.

But not for booting from an install on a CD/DVD

[dancytron]

I'm running Puppy, MX and various dogs together.

I'm basically doing the opposite as you are.

Rather than use the MX boot setup, I used the Debian Dog Multi-installer to setup grub2 (presumably the Puppy equivalent would work too).

Then I created a bootable MX usb and used it to create a frugal install on my hard-drive following the normal instructions. The MX install program makes the menu entry for the grub.cfg and puts it in a text file, all you have to do is paste it into your grub.cfg.

Dan

[bambuko]

... there is a need for simple, step-by-step, fool-proof instructions. For people with an existing Linux OS and a UEFI system...

+1
proof of the pudding is in the eating
for all the helpful advice I was getting here,
it wasn't until I followed @trawglodyte video that I ended up (easily) with frugal Puppy that was booting successfully on my MXLinux PC

I am not knowledgeable enough to know whether his instructions can be improved,
but so far it works for me.
Thank you

[trawglodyte]

Okay, thanks @bigpup, I chaged the menuentry on the Proton Drive I've been referring to to pmedia=atahd. The way I've been explaining it is "on the first boot, just reboot right away. You want to make a save file and boot in on that save file." I think that applies to pmedia=atahd and pmedia=cd. What I gather from your information is there's a potential issue on some machines that pmedia=cd spends additional time searching for a save file. If pmedia=atahd is potentially faster, then you sold me! I'm a sucker for speed.

[williwaw]

there is a read.me file included in some puppys, (I think Vanilla, at least), that covers boot parameters.
The contents of the read.me are also posted viewtopic.php?t=5484
perhaps @radky can include it in bookworm if he has not done so already

an excerpt:

pmedia=<atahd|ataflash|usbhd|usbflash|cd>
Indicates the type of boot device.
If it's "cd" then the partitions are searched for a save layer file, the only situation that triggers such a search.
If the first 3 characters are "usb", then any searching is restricted to only usb devices.
If the last 5 characters are "flash" the top layer in the stack remains the tmpfs in memory, otherwise any found save layer becomes the top layer in the stack.
This boot parameter should always be provided.

as you can see above, the read.me explains what the parameters are, but does not make an include an explanation of various pupmodes or guide the user to choosing the desired parameter, nor explain how edit the boot stanza for further use.

There could be a tutorial in the iso...... it could be an .html that opens at firstboot in pupmode5 ........the entire viewforum.php?f=184 could be available as a help button on the desktop.......

perhaps @bambuko or @trawglodyte, speaking as recently arrived puppy users, woulld be kind enough to suggest an easy way to arrive at the understanding gained in this forum conversation. The problem as I see it, is often times one does not know the questions to ask until one gets their feet wet.

[trawglodyte]

@williwaw That document is inaccurate. The first three characters 'usb' do not restrict searches to usb, and I think the concensus is atahd, not cd, which that document doesn't mention. This is the sort of conflicting information I'd like to resolve, but I think it's hopeless.

Anyway, if someone wants to boot a Puppy-related distro from an existing Linux OS, you extract the .iso, put the folder on your frugal partition, and put a menuentry in /boot/grub/custom.cfg. And that's it, it's that simple. Here's some templates for various distros that all work. Feel free to post these menu-entries elsewhere. --> https://drive.proton.me/urls/1SK31DNGDW#DmJVjpsrUIax

[bambuko]

...perhaps @bambuko .... speaking as recently arrived puppy users, woulld be kind enough to suggest an easy way to arrive at the understanding gained in this forum conversation...

some of the history is lost in the move from the old to new forum...
here is my first post:
https://oldforum.puppylinux.com/viewtop ... 44#p153344
(Nov 2007) have been using Puppy (and forum) on and off since then,
always a user, always a beginner but enjoying every minute of it

[williwaw]

@williwaw That document is inaccurate. The first three characters 'usb' do not restrict searches to usb, and I think the concensus is atahd, not cd, which that document doesn't mention. This is the sort of conflicting information I'd like to resolve, but I think it's hopeless.

Anyway, if someone wants to boot a Puppy-related distro from an existing Linux OS, you extract the .iso, put the folder on your frugal partition, and put a menuentry in /boot/grub/custom.cfg. And that's it, it's that simple. Here's some templates for various distros that all work. Feel free to post these menu-entries elsewhere. --> https://drive.proton.me/urls/1SK31DNGDW#DmJVjpsrUIax

I havent tested the restriction of searches to USB, but I am not sure what you mean about the atahd parameter, as it looks to be the first one mentioned. What looks hopeless? What can be improved?

Its nice that you are helping with your videos and online examples, and that bambuko found your help on the MX site.
I am wondering if you have a suggestion for puppy to lower the learning curve for someone who has...

you extract the .iso, put the folder on your frugal partition, and put a menuentry in /boot/grub/custom.cfg.

what would be the most logical way for the someone to provide the proper menuentry?

[williwaw]

...perhaps @bambuko .... speaking as recently arrived puppy users, woulld be kind enough to suggest an easy way to arrive at the understanding gained in this forum conversation...

:mrgreen: :lol:
some of the history is lost in the move from the old to new forum...
here is my first post:
https://oldforum.puppylinux.com/viewtop ... 44#p153344
(Nov 2007) have been using Puppy (and forum) on and off since then,
always a user, always a beginner but enjoying every minute of it :thumbup:

lol, my bad.
(I never spent much time at the old forum)