Whats up in Puppy World

[wiak]

Puppy look and feel and conceptionally currently similar, but may drift away in both these matters

Even forking that as new Puppy might become problematic trademark-wise since it no longer seemingly much of the original woof-CE code base?

[wiak]

Q: Is Puppy really a multiple distributions that live under the same name? What makes them Puppy?
A: Yes. All of them are built using Woof-CE that tailors packages regardless of source, to the puppy needs and principles. They also share a common set of puppy-specific utilities, applications and settings that gives them comparable functionality regardless of binary compatibility. The famous puppy OOB functionality, ease of use, efficiency and speed.

Above from Puppy FAQ

Note the part about common set of puppy-specific utilities. Not so sure that idea works nowadays either. How can that be enforced, and would you always want if to be?

[wiak]

There are direct committers to Woof-CE but usually these people don’t play the role of gatekeepers / stewards. They are simply people that the stewards have trusted enough to give them push access.

Also in FAQ

But issue is that direct committers can and could re-work woof-CE into entirely different build system and potentially a completely different Puppy design? So, for example, trust fredx181 enough and invite him as direct woof-CE committer and he could make current debiandog build system the new woof-CE. That was just an example. I'm neither advocating for that or suggesting fredx181 would ever want that...

[rockedge]

Note the part about common set of puppy-specific utilities. Not so sure that idea works nowadays either. How can that be enforced, and would you always want if to be?

That is becoming more or less out of date in ways and too limiting in scope.

I am for more of a FirstRib approach of the simpler build scripts with PLUG file recipes.

This already has the ability to build different distro's using a variety of upstream repos for those distro's

[wiak]

I am for more of a FirstRib approach of the simpler build scripts with PLUG file recipes.

This already has the ability to build different distro's using a variety of upstream repos for those distro's

But I was referring to Puppy, rockedge, which has its own trademark and whether you prefer firstrib build script method or not doesn't seem to solve Puppy build needs. Well, I suppose similar build approach might be possible yet still keep underneath Puppy main system scripts?

EDIT: problem might be Puppy wants its simple (sort of) sysvinit basis so that tends to cause major issues even if Puppy now moving to use up-stream package managers and so on. And then all that pupmode and distrospec stuff currently part of the build design... Using KL/FR and making pup lookalikes could certainly be done, and multiple upstream package manager flavours as we know - but no pupmodes per se - different...

Yes, the PLUG script to complete builds is simple to use for anyone who can write pretty simple bash commands - that's why FR creating feels so convenient and acts like templates for adoption by others who wish to build their own creations. Having said that, I am not advocating Puppy to become like Firstrib conceptually in terms of how it is built. Not my call anyway and KL/FR already exists and could be used to build pup lookalikes.

[rockedge]

@wiak yes, some way of changing the woof-CE distro creation recipes to be easier to manipulate. Perhaps in a way that FirstRib builds use but layered on to the woof-CE build system.

I am just throwing out some ideas really. Talking to myself kind of......

[rockedge]

problem might be Puppy wants its simple (sort of) sysvinit basis so that tends to cause major issues even if Puppy now moving to use up-stream package managers and so on. And then all pupmode and distrospec stuff currently part of the build design...

I agree. Though the different modes are desirable in the sense it makes Puppy more versatile So a rewrite of the initrd?

Address the core sysvinit usage and look into alternatives that has Puppy still performing in a similar traditional way?

[wiak]

So a rewrite of the initrd?

Address the core sysvinit usage and look into alternatives that has Puppy still performing in a similar traditional way?

That would certainly need to be done. Vanilla Dpup probably does that in its own way (albeit no convenient build plug extra?) Also, it is debian only. Note that I expanded my above post

[wiak]

@wiak yes, some way of changing the woof-CE distro creation recipes to be easier to manipulate. Perhaps in a way that FirstRib builds use but layered on to the woof-CE build system.

I am just throwing out some ideas really. Talking to myself kind of......

That makes sense to me

[wanderer]

hi all

i for one
am very pleased to see the gurus talking about
expanding the build system and structure of puppy
i think this will allow puppy to grow and become better and better

like a puppy maturing into a dog

which is a name we can use if we wish to avoid any trademark issues

so it could be a dog ( a puppy is an immature dog and a dog is a mature puppy )

it could even be an official dog

wanderer

[wanderer]

hi all

maybe you can teach an old dog new tricks

wanderer

[fredx181]

I hope that whatever happens in the future that animal names like puppy or dog are replaced by something else (not animal, please , I never liked it for an OS).

[wanderer]

please make a suggestion fredx181

if we have a new name for the the synergy of all the projects on the forum

we will not be able to argue about what is and what is not a puppy anymore ( and that would be a bad bad thing )

wanderer

[wiak]

I hope that whatever happens in the future that animal names like puppy or dog are replaced by something else (not animal, please , I never liked it for an OS).

Indeed. I never liked it either, which is main reason I threw away the weedog naming system in firstrib tho proved impossible to remove all remnants. 'Puppy' seemed even worse to me though since that is so long known it has brand status (I suppose)

[wiak]

So this is the puppylinux.com domain and forum

[wiak]

Kennel Linux was otherwise a reasonably unifying name since no need for that to always be based on firstrib - that was just provided as convenient start to that range, but domain name remains problematic in my view really

Then again, Puppy is known and valued so that much is set in stone in practice I feel

Or maybe not.

[wanderer]

i think the name problem can be solved very simply

by actually not doing anything

besides coming up with a new name for a project

puppy linux can remain puppy linux

the community will vote what is the candidate on the puppy homepage and distrowatch
which will be a puppy because the puppy community says it is

the other name can be used only to identify a project that just happens to be hosted on the forum
that includes all the work on the forum focused on making the system better

it just will be easier to talk about our distro
then constantly trying to decide if its a puppy or not

suggestions anyone

wanderer

[fredx181]

please make a suggestion fredx181

if we have a new name for the the synergy of all the projects on the forum

we will not be able to argue about what is and what is not a puppy anymore ( and that would be a bad bad thing )

wanderer

Well... how about: "Wanderer Linux" ?
No, sorry, don't have a suggestion, just expressed some annoyance I have about animal names for some software. But no big deal !
@puppybrand should stay of course, but perhaps more in the background (just thinking out loud)

[wanderer]

hi fredx181

if you name it wanderer linux
it is bound to be a dead dog on arrival

how about fredx181 linux
then maybe it will be a masterpiece like your debian(whatever)

wanderer

[wanderer]

well until the community comes up with a name for the new project

who's goal is to make our distro better

i will call it "our distro"

( or "res nostra" which is "our thing" in latin )

wanderer

[wanderer]

so how is "our distro" doing

maybe adding some firstrib stuff to woof-ce ?

maybe look at mklive as a build script ?

(i have no dog ( sorry fredx181 ) in this race since i am playing with debian(whatever) and am perfectly happy

and i shall make no more dog jokes after this post

wanderer

[williwaw]

Vincere

Vincent (Latin: Vincentius) is a male given name derived from the Roman name Vincentius, which is derived from the Latin word vincere (to conquer).

viewtopic.php?p=67196#p67196

[wanderer]

hi williwaw

then our distro will conquer the world

and the prophecy of linux world domination will be fulfilled

wanderer

[wanderer]

even though i dont understand exactly how it works

i do like the idea of firstrib being combined with woof-ce

to make it more user friendly and more universal

wanderer

[dimkr]

i do like the idea of firstrib being combined with woof-ce

woof-CE is 11 years old but many parts came from Woof and Unleashed. Some files even contain evidence of their birth some time in the early 2000s. There are big piles of unused code, code that doesn't do anything and code that doesn't work because assumptions made 10+ years ago are not true with today's kernels.

If you want to make woof-CE tidier and easier to use, there's so much you can remove before you add stuff

[wanderer]

thank you dimkr

you are our window on woof-ce

and since your creation shares less than 1%

you clearly have mastered it

what is your advice on what should be done ?

should we adopt your creation since you have already cleaned it up ?

wanderer

[dimkr]

what is your advice on what should be done ?

I'm not sure I understand the problem you're trying to solve, so I don't have any advice yet. I don't understand why you'd want to combine two build systems and get the disadvantages of both.

[wanderer]

thanks dimkr

i think that is a good answer

you do not see any advantage to trying to combine the two systems

wanderer

[dimkr]

you do not see any advantage to trying to combine the two systems

If this solves a problem, then there is an advantage. I still don't understand what problem can be solved by combining them, and best solved by doing this and not something else.

[wanderer]

hi dimkr and everyone

the problem to solve ( or at least the topic to discuss ) is how to make our distro ( family ) better

to my eyes there appears to be a number of systems being developed on the forum

1. old woof-ce

2. dimkrs vanilla dpup

3. debiandog

4. firstrib

5. fatdog

6. easyos

each system is being used to produce excellent work

this is quite an amazing situation
an embarrassment of riches

perhaps the only thing to do is highlight what each of these systems are producing
so community members new and old are aware of all that is going on

i also think it would be interesting to hear ideas
on how to improve things and directions to take

so there it is

thoughts anyone

wanderer