Whats up in Puppy World

[wanderer]

hi everyone

this is what mikesir posted on the distrowatch thread
i am reposting it here so everyone can see it and comment
if this is ok with everyone i will send it in to distrowatch

from mikesir

...

My final suggested wording. I have other things to do with my time. 195 Words:

Each new Puppy now reflects 20 years experience in constructing responsive, portable, modular 32 and 64 bit systems.
Puppy can boot from all storage media. It can share the partition used by Windows, another LinuxOS and other Puppies. You never have to delete a functional Puppy to try a different one.

Puppy’s Modules:
The Base Module contains applications for commonplace activities; and can augment those with Puppy's creations and from the repositories of another respected Linux.

Puppy Portables are self-contained applications run from wherever located. Supplemental Modules are loaded and unloaded 'on the fly'. Distinct external units, their updates can not break your operating system and need never leave you with a worse version.

To preserve additional applications and settings across reboots:
Saves are dynamic. After a User creates one, the ‘Click of a button’ preserves changes. Since “Mistakes Happen”, Saves can be backed-up, changes tested before “The Click”; and Puppies can always boot to desktop using only the Base and (if present) Auxiliary Modules.
Auxiliary Modules are static. Best used (a) to only hold settings –easy to update (b) and/or applications you will never want to change.
Kernels are also separate modules which can be swapped.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edit, for accuracy added two words --new, now--o 1sr sentence

...

thanks
wanderer

[fredx181]

even if you are not new to the forum

what brought you here ?

and what are you interested in ?

My (short) story is a bit different than @mikewalsh's (see above).
After several years using Windooze, I discovered Linux, first Ubuntu, later also Linux Mint, Debian, I really liked it, the FOSS principle and all.
Somewhat later I did discover SLAX (at that time using Slackware as a base, now using Debian), WOW!! I got hooked, nearly obsessed. You can run Linux from a USB stick ?!!! A revelation.
Shortly after that I found Puppy Linux, first Lupu, and was attracted to the fact that it made use of deb packages (like I was used to with Ubuntu) and liked it more than Slackware (with SLAX).
But... I didn't really like some things about Puppy (sorry) e.g. the setup with JWM / Rox, the package management (PPM) (in my eyes inferior compared with Synaptic / Apt on Debian/Ubuntu).
Later... old forum member saintless started a project (later named DebianDog) that was very different from Puppy, and I joined the development of it.
For some years "DebianDog" (frankly I do not like that name anymore) had in some ways the "ambition" of being presented as a "distro", nowadays there's just a build system available (edit: from me at least) (e.g. for the latest stable 'Bookworm') and mainly because of personal reasons my ambitions are now quite low, it's just hobby, but I am still using it myself now for the most as my main Linux OS, doesn't mean though that I'm not interested in the latest Puppy developments, I am ! (one of my other hobbies ).

[darksun]

Back in 2004 I started studying by myself Linux over books and used Suse, IT was my main passion, wanted to work in this field so took several courses and though to register at University. This did not happen for personal reason and I ended up studying and working in a different field, yet IT was and still is and will be one of my top passions.

After Suse I loved Kanotix as it started loving debian ( an ongoing relationship lasting more then 2 decades) and as well as for its hardware support.

After Kanotix I switched to Ubuntu but when Unity came in as it DE I switched and used for many years first Xubuntu then Lubuntu.

In the last 5 years I used first MX linux then its "cousin" antiX with much love.

Since December 2023 I am using Puppy, first BWP64 and now vanilladpup 10.x . I guess after many relationships that ended up I think I have finally found the one I am gonna settle and getting married with.

I am interested in simplicity , efficiency, portability, among other things.

DS

[rockedge]

To preserve additional applications and settings across reboots:

This statement needs to be modified to include the way Puppy Linux operates booted in pupmode 12, where once the persistence folder (file system) is created is continuously written too and RAM contents automatically saved for reboot or shutdown.

[wanderer]

i guess the best way to amend mikesirs description

is that if anyone wants to change any of the lines

post your version of that whole line on this thread

and we will replace it in the text

we will do this until the full text is satisfactory to all

then i will send it in to distrowatch

thanks

wanderer

[mikeslr]

First, let me thank Wanderer for starting this thread. It's a good idea to have one location for all of us to come together to discuss ideas and developments; for any of us to bring to the attention of others matters of general importance. In the past I've had to guess where to do that.

But like every good idea, it has its limitations. Those discussions will quickly become fragmented: those of one issue mixed among those of others. bigpup's rule "One thread, one issue" also makes sense. 55 delegates met in Philadelphia to discuss drafting a Constitution. But they broke up into committees to discuss specific issues. Congress still does that.

rockedge is right. I don't use Pupmode12, and didn't consider it. The last thing I want is for Puppy to automatically Save the temporary condition which occurs when I'm in the middle of changing things where the next step might cause a shutdown. It took 5 billion years to develop the flexibility of the Human Brain. No algorism can currently match that.

Suggested revision of the section at issue:

After a User creates one, at most the ‘Click of a button’ will preserve changes. Since “Mistakes Happen”, Saves can be backed-up, testing is possible before Saving*; and Puppies can always boot to desktop using only the Base and (if present) Auxiliary Modules.

This add several words. But an examination of the Top Left Side of the Distro Definition page --debian's used as an example, but also see LinuxMints, https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint--

DistroDefinition.png (59.3 KiB) Viewed 2132 times

--
specific mention of 32-bit could be left out. I think that would be a mistake from an advertising prospective. However, that examination raises the question of how we should fill-out the form generating that display? For example, peebe publishes 'auxiliary' modules providing Lxde --which may not work in all Puppys-- and some Puppys use xfce. I think we can read into the question "Do any". There aren't really any JWM debians. Other specifications will require some thought.

I like what Puppy says about Categories:

Definition Puppy.png (36.83 KiB) Viewed 2132 times

But "Based On -- Independent" hasn't been accurate for a decade +/-.

-=-=-=--
* Here, as elsewhere, I've left out the 'fine-print', the hurdles you have to jump over to enable it, in this case those needed to operate under PupMode13 when Puppy is located on a hard-drive.

[dimkr]

automatically saved for reboot or shutdown.

The first part was correct, 12 means that changes are saved directly to the save folder and there's nothing that needs to be explicitly saved on shutdown.

I think it would be simpler to say that Puppy can run persistently, non-persistenly or in a persistent-on-demand mode where the user decides when to save. Nobody outside of the Puppy world wants to hear the PUPMODE stuff.

[wiak]

As far as KL is concerned, or at least KL based on FirstRib initrd, I'm looking to write some small booklet so have a bit text started and stored here: viewtopic.php?p=120838#p120838

[mikeslr]

I agree with dimkr. Was thinking about something similar while still discussing 'Modules'. dimkr's wording enabled my thinking to gel with this:
-=-=--=-
Each new Puppy now reflects 20 years experience in constructing responsive, portable, modular 32 and 64 bit systems.
Puppy can boot from all storage media. It can share the partition used by Windows, another LinuxOS and other Puppies. You never have to delete a functional Puppy to try a different one.

Puppy’s Modules:
The Base Module contains applications for commonplace activities; and can augment those with Puppy's creations and from the repositories of another respected Linux.

Puppy Portables are self-contained applications run from wherever located. Supplemental Modules are loaded and unloaded 'on the fly'. Both being distinct external units, their updates can not break your operating system and need never leave you with a worse version.

Dynamic Save Modules can be used to preserve additional applications and settings across reboots either persistently or in a persistent-on-demand mode. Static Auxiliary Modules can also be used.

Kernels are also separate modules which can be swapped.
--=-=-=-
153 words

[wiak]

Supplemental Modules are loaded and unloaded 'on the fly'.

I presume this doesn't assume an aufs-based Puppy only since seems to be a move towards using overlayfs as the default in Puppy too(?) In other words is Puppy using the symlink method of loading sfs on the fly and is that considered stable in terms of woof-CE providing it by default for that overlayfs case?

Whilst fredx181 implemented that mechanism for KLV-Airedale pre any Puppy implementation, he didn't feel comfortable with it being an inbuilt default in KL for some reason or other - issues with cleaning up symlinks at end or something (though I have a memory that rockedge maybe just put sfs load on the fly into KLV-Airedale regardless of the doubts).

[rockedge]

Each new Puppy now reflects 20 years experience in constructing responsive, portable, modular 32 and 64 bit systems.
Puppy can boot from all storage media. It can share the partition used by Windows, another LinuxOS and other Puppies. You never have to delete a functional Puppy to try a different one.

Puppy’s Modules:
The Base Module contains applications for commonplace activities; and can augment those with Puppy's creations and from the repositories of another respected Linux.

Puppy Portables are self-contained applications run from wherever located. Supplemental Modules are loaded and unloaded 'on the fly'. Both being distinct external units, their updates can not break your operating system and need never leave you with a worse version.

Dynamic Save Modules can be used to preserve additional applications and settings across reboots either persistently or in a persistent-on-demand mode. Static Auxiliary Modules can also be used.

Kernels are also separate modules which can be swapped.

I think this is it! Description is good, clear and understandable without being overly "technical"

The first part was correct, 12 means that changes are saved directly to the save folder and there's nothing that needs to be explicitly saved on shutdown.

my original wording wasn't exactly clear, but that's what I meant. In pupmode 12 there is no need to invoke any manual save.

[rockedge]

though I have a memory that rockedge maybe just put sfs load on the fly into KLV-Airedale regardless of the doubts

Yes I did leave the SFS-Load intact in KLV-Airedale and KLV-Spectr to continue testing if any problems would appear. So far I have not run into any issues loading and unloading a SFS in KLV.

[fredx181]

Whilst fredx181 implemented that mechanism for KLV-Airedale pre any Puppy implementation, he didn't feel comfortable with it being an inbuilt default in KL for some reason or other - issues with cleaning up symlinks at end or something (though I have a memory that rockedge maybe just put sfs load on the fly into KLV-Airedale regardless of the doubts).

Well, not exactly, indeed I said that I didn't feel comfortable with it (call it sort of disclaimer), primary reason is that IMO it hasn't been tested very much in all possible cases (e.g. will it conflict (while SFS is loaded) with files added to the system by the package manager ?, can't be sure). Cleaning up the created symlinks should work ok though (it's outfitted with plan A and plan B ).

[backi]

@dimkr wrote:

I think it would be simpler to say that Puppy can run persistently, non-persistenly or in a persistent-on-demand mode where the user decides when to save. Nobody outside of the Puppy world wants to hear the PUPMODE stuff.

Not a bad Idea.
Cause this Kind of Terminology is more common ..to a broader Audience.......outside of the "Puppy" Bubble.

[dimkr]

Supplemental Modules are loaded and unloaded 'on the fly'.

I presume this doesn't assume an aufs-based Puppy only since seems to be a move towards using overlayfs as the default in Puppy too(?) In other words is Puppy using the symlink method of loading sfs on the fly and is that considered stable in terms of woof-CE providing it by default for that overlayfs case?

woof-CE provides a sfs_load implementation for overlay that uses symlinks, yes. It works well and has error handling for unclean shutdown with loaded SFSs: it performs fast cleanup of leftover symlinks on boot and shutdown. woof-CE's default is to use aufs if available, otherwise it falls back to overlay, but that's only for backward compatibility with old build configurations - I consider overlay support to be stable (and I don't see bug reports).

Therefore, I don't think that the sad state of aufs is a reason to remove SFSs from the distro description text. SFSs are slower to load with overlay and they can't override files, but only if loaded by sfs_load (loading at boot time is handled the same way as aufs). The vast majority of users won't notice the change to overlay if they replace the Puppy they use.

[fredx181]

I don't see bug reports

That doesn't say much in general, I think, it depends much on how widely it is used (I don't think many people use SFS on-the-fly anymore nowadays, specially not with the newer Puppys as most (old) SFS's shared (here and there) won't work anyway).

[dimkr]

@fredx181 True, it took months until the first feature requests and bug reports, so the silence after this first wave doesn't indicate much. And I also think that SFSs are not as widely used as they used to be: you don't need devx if you have apt and DKMS, and some folks seem to use these 'portable' applications instead.

[wanderer]

hi all

i just want to mention
what i feel are some very positive things

if a vote by the entire puppy community
determines what is and what is not a puppy
then the endless argument about what is and what is not a puppy becomes moot

if everything on the forum
is accepted as a part of puppy world
and of equal value
then again the endless argument about what is and what is not a puppy becomes moot

puppy has become essentially its own distrowatch
which everyone in puppy world should be extremely proud of

just think of someone discovering puppy world for the first time
or someone (like me) who has been involved for many years
this forum is a wonderland of possibilities

puppy world appears to be doing fantastic
actually better than its ever been

so kudos to everyone

wanderer

[stevie pup]

I've just got round to reading this thread all the way through, and some interesting stuff has been brought up. As much as I would like to be a bit more involved I just don't have the know how. I wouldn't know where to start putting a .pet package together, let alone a complete Puppy, so all praise to those that do.

One aspect has left me scratching my head a bit, this business about what's a Puppy and what isn't. I originally thought that VanillaDPup was an official Puppy, until someone pointed out to me that it isn't. The only thing that made me think that was simply because it's in the "mainline" section of the forum. So what's it doing there?

So apart from that, what does define a Puppy? Where's the dividing line? What's to say "that's a Puppy" but "that one isn't"?

Just curious.

[wanderer]

hi stevie pup

that is why i started this thread
well one of the reasons

long story short

originally barry kauler created puppy
he made the first puppies
and for a long time he made puppy after puppy
they were puppies because he was the puppy master

other community members made many variations and remasters of puppy
as it was very easy to modify
but barry kauler made the official puppy

then he retired to do other things
now he is working on easyos
which he also lists on the forum

he left an official puppy master who decided what was puppy after that
but that puppy master then retired

so eventually there was no one who had the authority to decide what was a puppy
the original requirement was that it had to be built with woof-ce

but then other types of systems were accepted on the forum
which all were inspired by the general ideas behind puppy

so an endless argument began about what was and what was not an official puppy

this argument resulted in an enormous amount of wasted time and energy
which has exhausted everyone and produced no benefit

it became clear to me
and i think to many others in the puppy community
that all of the systems on the forum
just as all of the variations made when barry kauler made puppy
have equal value
and together have a synergistic effect that benefits the entire puppy community

as to our distrowatch candidate
this is decided by a vote by the entire puppy community

so this thread was started to hopefully put a permanent end to the endless argument
and to bring all of the projects on the forum together
they are all part of puppy world

let us all work together for the common good

wanderer

[fredx181]

I originally thought that VanillaDPup was an official Puppy

I think most of us will agree that VanillaDPup is definitely a "Puppy" but "official" is another thing to define, does the UN declare it as 'official' ? Ok, not, but who does ?

[Clarity]

@fredx181 I agree with that statement.

From my narrow point of view, a PUP seems to me to be similar to the Historical past of Puppy where a WOOF generated a set of packages that provided content to populate the High-level components of the Menu on the taskbar. After the torch was passed-on, WoofCE became the generator for Pups populating the Menu with updated apps. Vanillas (the 7 current versions of them) are a PUP, too; if this generator is the basis used.

Its author may agree or disagree, but ...

[dimkr]

a WOOF generated a set of packages that provided content to populate the High-level components of the Menu on the taskbar.

Is this AI generated?

[thinkpadfreak]

First, I am sorry that I have not read all the posts in this thread.

I do not know who decides what official Puppy is. But I think it is necessary that someone of us should inform new comers of which Puppy/Puppies to use at first.

The explanation that there are so many Puppies and so many derivatives would be confusing. People in general cannot understand the situation. It is usual that one version is designated as the newest stable in most of the distributions.

When we consider the promotion of Puppy Linux, it will be important to choose a few Puppies, test them fully and present them as "official."

By the way, the top page of puppylinux.com has been renewed, where BookwormPup, F96-CE and S15Pup are recommended. I have no objection, though I don't know how the decision has been made.

[wiak]

I originally thought that VanillaDPup was an official Puppy

I think most of us will agree that VanillaDPup is definitely a "Puppy" but "official" is another thing to define, does the UN declare it as 'official' ? Ok, not, but who does ?

A fork is a fork and is 'owned' by whoever forked it and has a brand new identity no matter that is may later continue to track commits made to the original. Makes me remember similar fork scenario involving ffmpeg fork libav, which the libav people also said allowed them to make changes they couldn't otherwise easily get agreement about. Forking an otherwise dead project is different scenario of course. Despite big distro support libav eventually vanished and we are thankfully back to ffmpeg again.

[rockedge]

By the way, the top page of puppylinux.com has been renewed, where BookwormPup, F96-CE and S15Pup are recommended. I have no objection, though I don't know how the decision has been made.

There was a long thread about it somewhere here some weeks ago started by @wanderer concerning the Distrowatch submissions for Puppy Linux that featured this discussion.

[dimkr]

I originally thought that VanillaDPup was an official Puppy

I think most of us will agree that VanillaDPup is definitely a "Puppy" but "official" is another thing to define, does the UN declare it as 'official' ? Ok, not, but who does ?

A fork is a fork

BionicPup64, FossaPup64, [...] were built using modified versions of woof-CE (that were never published, btw), making them forks (and partially closed-source) although they're featured in puppylinux.com and distrowatch.com as 'official'.

(Same with BookwormPup64, by the way)

[wiak]

I think most of us will agree that VanillaDPup is definitely a "Puppy" but "official" is another thing to define, does the UN declare it as 'official' ? Ok, not, but who does ?

A fork is a fork

BionicPup64, FossaPup64, [...] were built using modified versions of woof-CE (that were never published, btw), making them forks (and partially closed-source) although they're featured in puppylinux.com and distrowatch.com as 'official'.

(Same with BookwormPup64, by the way)

Which suggests to me, in regard to "What is Puppy", that Puppy is any distro produced (at least originally) via woof-CE or a fork of woof-CE, which may or may not involve additional polishing via some remaster operations(?)

[wanderer]

hi all

i have a question

is a "puppy"

1. based on a concept

or

2. based on a particular piece of code

wanderer

[jamesbond]

hi all

i have a question

is a "puppy"

1. based on a concept

or

2. based on a particular piece of code

wanderer

Hahaha. Here we go again.
While we're at it, I'll add the third question:

3. Who gets to decide, whether a particular distro is "puppy" or "not puppy"?

Get your popcorns ready gentlemen.