Whats up in Puppy World

[wanderer]

hi all

this is a thread to discuss the technical innovations that are occurring in Puppy World

that is all of the projects on the forum

i am hoping that this will bring all the projects together to exchange ideas
and to have a place where forum members can go to see what is happening

wanderer

[wanderer]

i would like to start it by mentioning how impressed i am with fredx181s debiandog
it is truly a masterpiece
everyone should check it out

i would also like wiak
if he has the time
to explain how his project works

any other projects that should be mentioned

wanderer

[wanderer]

i especially like the idea of a single script ( as in debiandog )
that will build a complete puppy world distro

that is not in github
and anyone can use

it can be developed in github
but it should be available on the forum
so anyone can read it and modify it

wanderer

[wiak]

i would like to start it by mentioning how impressed i am with fredx181s debiandog
it is truly a masterpiece
everyone should check it out

i would also like wiak
if he has the time
to explain how his project works

Alas, my family have been ripped off in a house build, which we now put all our efforts into ourselves in an attempt to cut our big losses to a minimum; sadly that means I have no time to explain anything in any worthwhile detail at the moment. Actually, it pains me since I have so many KL/FR related matters, plans and ideas I intended and want to get back to, but for another six months I doubt I can.

As for DebianDog... I used DebianDogs of one flavour or another almost totally as my main desktop system from 2013 up till 2019, so six long enjoyable years. I agree with your comment about their usability and design totally. In fact I'd likely still be using DebianDog were it not for my producing FirstRib as an experiment and hobby project and taking that far enough such that it reached useful status beyond my dreams really (never claimed KL/FR was better than any DebianDog though). One early reason for my creating FirstRib build system was that I had discovered the existence of Void Linux and from studying that had reached the opinion that its package manager and independent repo was a near perfect fit to be used on a distro emanating from contributions on this forum - Puppy itself focussed on more mainstream distros for its builds at that time (Slackware and Debian or Ubuntu primarily), which didn't seem to fit the traditional Puppy alternative viewpoint very well IMO, and the Debian world seemed far better answered by DebianDog anyway and still is truth be told (despite the now eleven years of denial attitude of some).

Puppy itself remains attractive in several ways that I've stated elsewhere, but if you want excellent Debian compatibility, and with Puppy size and equal or better flexible functionality, as well as a neat simple build system for that, then you can't go wrong with DebianDog. But, Puppy continues to hold its own in other ways in terms of simple to use and administer and small useful included programs (but its woof-CE contrived build system is a disaster zone IMO compared to DebianDog or FirstRib for that matter; my understanding is that these beautiful original puppy distros (up to maybe the 5 series) were not build by any Woof system, yet they were 'official' (BarryK creations using own compiled repos of apps from T2 sources as far as I remember). That woof-CE produces Pups means that it is not useless of course, but I don't deny that I'd advocate throwing it in the bin and redesigning the build system, but that does not at all imply throwing Puppy itself in the bin - just nice to see overall support and Puppy using people working on more attractive build system design for it than current (awful and ridiculously complex/messy/flawed) woof-CE provides - or is the lack of developers willing to work with woof-CE indicative of great love for its structure and design???

So yes, I know that DebianDog (and its simple script build system using underlying debootstrap from Debian) is fantastic for those who love Debian-based systems and want near perfect compatibility with upstream Debian, but in a tiny original distro download size, which has been handcrafted once debootstrap base complete (controlled via the build script).

Clearly some enthusiasts of later woof-CE Pups imagine that I am against Puppy, but why on earth would anyone want any distro to vanish; it is just an OS that is freely available and thus a gift which should be valued and continually improved. I would actually hate to see Puppy die as a worthwhile current distro to use, but old viewpoints about how it should be created and protected from 'competition' have actually over time resulted in dangerous stagnation in terms of compromised builds, lack of consistency, and a bit stuck in the mud in official woof-CE/remastering and so on tendencies. Protectionism seems to me have lost Puppy its community oriented progressive nature - old timers maybe too busy feeling threatened with other efforts that have been going on for over a decade. But, whatever. Let's just hope the more collaborative in nature amongst us manage to keep Puppy alive and help it to change as much as it needs to in order to remain relevant and attractive, which we want it to be. All distros on this forum are valuable, in equal measure, because they are freely contributed by members of this forum for everyone to use, play with, and enjoy. If some want to limit what is available, then they should simply only use that which they want to use - but let's hope not all developers fear collaboration and advancing all technology contributions that are the assets of this place.

[wanderer]

hi wiak and everyone

i am now looking at your work
it looks great of course

i will try to build your entry level iso
and generally try to figure out your system

it looks like i can build a minimal modular distro with your system
and thats my main focus in life

i will post my experiences here
as a sort of review

take care of yourself and if you have a few moments
please check in on this thread now and then
and tell us a little about your system

your system KL/FR and debiandog
to me seem to be the direction puppy should be going in

i will continue to keep them in the limelight on this thread

i hope others will comment on these systems
and anything else they feel is relevant

hopefully this thread will become a focal point for development in puppy world

however i am slow and stupid so bear with me

but i will comment on this thread regularly
because everyone is entitled to my opinion

wanderer

[wiak]

If people here want up-to-date nice Puppy distros in the future then beware current state of 'official' woof-CE Puppy build system. That's really all I'm saying. I'm not at all myself advocating any KL or DebianDog as some kind of new pseudo Puppy - they are not that or trying to be that. Puppy is Puppy and should remain so.

What I continue to advocate is better marketing of all forum distros to bring more users in that may or may not be interested in Puppy itself. I'm too busy or of course I'd work on a Distrowatch presence for KL distros, which are just as interesting and worthwhile as Puppy or DebianDogs or whatever. They are all valuable contributions here that should be supported and used to make this forum more attractive and active with new users overall.

Having said all that. Yes, we have been here before - so many times over the many years of forum progression. But status quo is certainly not always a good thing in terms of its growing effect (or lack of growth effect).

Those who do decide to 'do' will eventually change Puppy (and the way this forum and its distros is marketed) but maybe never, or maybe another ten years or maybe Puppy already dead but some of the other distros here live on (because why wouldn't they?). Anyway, I'm myself busy just now - nothing more to say on Puppy what's up world really - it isn't very important I think.

But yeah, if you have used Puppy for years and refused to use any other distro here, you might get a shock if you tried DebianDog - in reality of actually trying it, you may really get frightened because it really is pretty good, which might shock you out of your slumber. It's no bigger than Puppy once built, and if you complain that it takes long to build then just ask someone to build an iso of it for you - I'm sure that would be no problem.

[wanderer]

i dont believe its a good idea to submit every project to distrowatch

if every individual project is submitted to distrowatch it fragments the effort
the synergy that is achieved by everyone coming to this forum and working together is what advances puppy

two heads are better than one

many hands make easy work

that is the idea behind linux
the bazaar not the cathedral

even barry k has a thread on this forum for easyos which he says is not puppy

so let us all work together for the common good

wanderer

[wiak]

so let us all work together for the common good

wanderer

I am sure most people on this forum nowadays actually have that same view, but a couple of louder mouths make it seem otherwise. One trick these people have against me is to make out I'm FirstRib/KL centric only, which is a lot of nonsense. I am forum-centric, not distro centric at all. At home I use Linux Mint nowadays (XFCE variant - not interested in the other crap), but for hobby play I'm interested on everything discussed in the forum.

[wanderer]

well wiak

until we are banned

we shall not be silenced

wanderer

[wanderer]

oh by the way i use upup32 as my main distro ( thanks peebee )
and now will be using debiandog ( thanks fredx181 )
and soon will be using FirstRib ( thanks wiak )

i dont need no stinking windows ( or mint for that matter )

wanderer

[wanderer]

hi all

since this thread is supposed to be about whats going on in puppy world

lets see if anyone answers this question

what distro do you use

and why

wanderer

[wanderer]

here is another question

where does everyone think the puppy world should go

what does the puppy world need to advance technically ( systems etc )

thoughts anyone

wanderer

[wanderer]

here is another question

jamesbond and others have mentioned

that they would like to see a puppy that focuses on being a universal platform

to quote

jamesbond wrote:

Common folks don't use operating systems. They use __applications__ that runs on top of the operating system, e.g. web browsing, word processing, spreadsheet, media players, audio editing, games, music / video authoring, livestreaming, servers, etc.

Why not aim to make Puppy a platform that can run as many useful applications as possible, with as little fuss as possible? In other word, the most compatible platform to run useful applications? All other stuff (technology, etc) should be subservient to this purpose. Along with portability, user-friendliness, instant recovery if one makes a mistake, that would make Puppy stand out.

fredx181 answered

That sounds as music in my ears Can you perhaps go in more detail about your view and how, compared to how things are done now, e.g. how latest Puppies (or others) are currently made ?

...

does anyone have any thoughts on this

wanderer

[Grey]

Deleted (violated terms of this forum)

By the way, a certain percentage of my acquaintances and friends do not trust developers who themselves do not use (all the time) the OS they develop or support. OK, let's soften the term a bit ... It's not that they don't trust, but rather they are... wary.

It's a complicated feeling. Rather, it is a complex of sensations on an intuitive level

[wanderer]

here is another question

is woof-ce user friendly

should woof-ce be made more usr friendly

or should an alternative method of building distros be developed ( perhaps debiandog or FirstRib )

...

thoughts anyone

wanderer

[Jasper]

@wiak

Sorry to hear your bad news.

I sincerely hope that you and the family do manage to overcome the present situation.

Take care

[Jasper]

instant recovery if one makes a mistake

I know that it is sensible to always have a recovery plan .... just in case of those days when it decides to go wrong!!

A scheduled backup option would be useful especially at the beginning when you are experimenting and trying out new applications.

[wanderer]

hi jasper

congrats you are 1 of 3 people who have actually responded on this thread

let us hope that someone is reading this and can address your request

wanderer

[bigpup]

Posting is going to get messy with so many questions to answer.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One thing that I see is now always needed in a Puppy version is the Apt Package Manager.

Synaptic Package Manager to give it a GUI optional feature.

If still going to support pet packaging.

Puppy Package Manager (PPM) is still needed, but could really use some updating and improvements.

[wanderer]

hi everyone

i am posting this on the puppy world thread
because i feel it applies to the entire puppy community

the puppy distrowatch candidate is determined by
the votes of the entire puppy community

they can choose whatever distro they want
and they alone decide

since we only need 1 candidate per year
it is unlikely that many candidates will be chosen
since it entails a lot of work building and supporting the candidate

that leaves all the other distros on the puppy linux forum

in my mind none of them have second class status
they all have their value

i am hoping all of them will be mentioned and supported on this thread

that is one of the reasons i started it

as to debiandog and FirstRib
i have a personal interest in them
so i will be constantly talking about them

the other distros im sure also have their advocates

so please if you have something to say about any of the distros on the puppy forum
please post it here so we all can remain aware of what is going on with them
and benefit from their contributions to puppy world

wanderer

[wiak]

By the way, a certain percentage of my acquaintances and friends do not trust developers who themselves do not use (all the time) the OS they develop or support. OK, let's soften the term a bit ... It's not that they don't trust, but rather they are... wary.

Ah good, I'm trusted then, since though I almost always use Linux Mint XFCE nowadays, not only do I often experiment with various KL distros, I tend to use Linux Mint with special FR initrd KL_full2frugal, so I'm actually always using FirstRib and developing it for my special Linux Mint use. People should remember that KL relies on FirstRib, which itself, aside from its simple build system, also provides key FR initrd component that was carefully designed to be of generic use, meaning that it 'generally' doesn't care which underlying root filesystem it is controlling; in my case the underlying root filesystem is a full install of Linux Mint - which is wonderful really, and specially since means I'm using the key OS component I develop, being FR initrd... Hence all suspicions or wariness can be put away as unnecessary for my distro usage case

[wiak]

One thing that I see is now always needed in a Puppy version is the Apt Package Manager.

That would imply a change concerning Puppy in that it was marketed as being multi-distro type. Apt means Debian-based, meaning Debian, Ubuntu, or Devuan; implying no Void, Arch, Slackware Pup instances. Understandable comment though since most focus is currently on Fossa or Bookworm so the post re: apt was probably only concerning that side of things.

[greengeek]

One thing that I see is now always needed in a Puppy version is the Apt Package Manager.

I have never understood this concept. I never saw anything wrong with the PPM idea of accessing packages that have been tested (or developed) by fellow Puppians.
Does "Apt" have any understanding of the huge value of mikewalsh's portables??
I have a strong preference for using packages that I find here on the @rockedge forum. For a long time the Murga forum was unique in it's ability to support the software needs of various (and many) Puppies - but I feel this forum has now become a strong replacement. Would love to see a return to the idea that PPM will take you to a range of Puppy-tested pets and sfs.

[wiak]

One thing that I see is now always needed in a Puppy version is the Apt Package Manager.

I have never understood this concept. I never saw anything wrong with the PPM idea of accessing packages that have been tested (or developed) by fellow Puppians.
Does "Apt" have any understanding of the huge value of mikewalsh's portables??
I have a strong preference for using packages that I find here on the @rockedge forum. For a long time the Murga forum was unique in it's ability to support the software needs of various (and many) Puppies - but I feel this forum has now become a strong replacement. Would love to see a return to the idea that PPM will take you to a range of Puppy-tested pets and sfs.

Yes, I understand this feeling and point of view. The major problem with PPM has been its imperfection for a repo fetching task that is already done perfectly by official repo pacage manager, being apt in the case of Debian. If only Puppy was still produced via its own individual supported repo...

Nevertheless, losing own package dotpet format does remain a somehow painful idea such that my own opinion can't help but swing back and forward on this matter.

Overall my own attempt to resolve the matter was to make official apt packet management only achieved via an addon sfs, which I experimentally made prior to other putting much the same thing into permanent woof-CE build.

An alternative would be to allow for PPM as the optional addon, but that makes Puppy pkg management the second class citizen.

I still therefore tend to feel that bolt on official repo package managers, as optional is more in Puppy unique design concept. Wouldn't need to be apt, could optionally be Void xpbs, or Arch pacman. Maybe not so perfect in terms of of fully integrated, but dev work can address that. At least the distro would remain uniquely multi-distro capable Puppy. The key would then be to improve PPM or pkg, and why not?

[Jasper]

I use JRB's JammyPup which did not come with the APT package manager.

However, User1234 did compile an ISO with this included as a SFS.

Personally I do not use the APT package manager and prefer to compile my own applications as and when needed.

Admittedly, I do tend to keep my core applications up to date.

Is there no mechanism/process where user contributed applicatons when checked/verified can be added to the PPM?

There is a subforum here for user contributed Packages & Repositories.

[dimkr]

I never saw anything wrong with the PPM idea of accessing packages that have been tested (or developed) by fellow Puppians.

This idea is fine as an idea, but
1. PPM itself is unmaintained for years
2. The PPM repos like "noarch" contain ancient packages (not sure if it's https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE-noarch or https://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/p ... es-noarch/) and nobody actually maintains them - without people building and maintaining packages (= updating them, fixing bugs, ...), there's nothing you'd actually want to install using PPM assuming PPM works well and all
3. Other package mangers support "unofficial" repositories, this is not unique to PPM - you can set up your own apt repo (a PPA?), for example

[wanderer]

hi all

this is just an opinion from a non-developer person

it seems like the less work the developers have to do on maintenance
the more time they can spend on creation

is there a general package manger that is not distro specific
that is already developed and maintained by others
that can just be adopted by puppy

as i understand it most package managers can be made to point to any repository

i think wiak has mentioned one from void

just pick the best to use and easiest to maintain
no reason to exclude things just because they were not developed by puppy

wanderer

[wanderer]

hi all

this is a request

i note the FirstRib introductory example is not a complete distro
and there is so much going on in their subsection
its overwhelming to the uninitiated


could the FirstRib developers
make a script to produce a base iso
that is usable as a working distro

just

jwm -rox
xterm
text editor - geany
firefox
media player
image viewer - viewnior
internet access

so anyone could just run the script
and build the iso
and use it for basic tasks

this base could be developed into their example distro
to showcase their system

and give people a good starting point to get involved with their project

this would give puppy world
3 build systems

woof-ce
debiandog live
FirstRib

and would eliminate the problem
of woof-ce being unusable for most people
one can simply choose one of the other 2 systems to build their iso

wanderer

[dimkr]

and would eliminate the problem
of woof-ce being unusable for most people

Is this a real problem? Is this the primary reason for Puppy's stagnation, and not the lack of skilled contributors?

https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/w ... -on-GitHub

[wanderer]

hi dimkr

alas you suffer from the failing of most geniuses
you simply cant comprehend that most people are not anywhere as smart as you

we mere mortals need something that we can use
that is why the single script approach works so well for us

its simple like us

we dont even have to understand how it works

we can run it and it magically does what we want

if we wish to be adventurous we can even try to read the script and maybe understand it
and if we are seized with a frenzy we may even try to modify it

so someone needs to make a script for us

only people of your rank can navigate the maze of woof-ce

wanderer