BookwormPup64 10.0.6

[dimkr]

and now it's been chosen as the PPM replacement? Puh-leeze.....

PPM is unmaintained for years, it's unreliable (especially when used with Debian packages) and it makes it very easy to break your system.

Anyone who wants PPM back should either:

1. Volunteer to maintain PPM: fix known bugs, fix its architecture (for example, make it understand a situation where package a depends on b or c - if user installs a but c is present, no need to install b), make it less CPU intensive and make it faster, or
2. Find somebody else to do this

[bigpup]

WELCOME TO LINUX SOFTWARE!

I never understood why people wanted to drop using PPM as the Puppy package manager.

It does what it does very well.

However, it is limited and really does need to have some tweaking and features added.
Being able to easily add a repository, to get software from, is one.

PPM is unmaintained for years, it's unreliable (especially when used with Debian packages) and it makes it very easy to break your system.

This is mainly because the deb package is coming from a repository, that is for a specific other than Puppy Linux OS (say a version of Ubuntu).
The deb package works OK for the Ubuntu version, because it is compiled for that specific version of Ubuntu, and what it has already in it.
It is a crap shoot, it may also work in the Puppy version, based on that specific version of Ubuntu.
Some do work, some do not.

With a little work, by someone that understands the program code.
PPM could be still a very good package manager.
Maybe have a way it could actually use apt and record exactly what apt did.
So, uninstall in PPM could do a good job, to uninstall something, apt installed.

APT:
Having apt added to Puppy, as a way to get software, has been long needed, but it too is limited, on how well it does work.
But if you go find software on the Internet, all that it provides, is apt commands to get the download of it, and how to install.
Apt is needed to be there to use.
I have gotten software from program web sites by using apt.
The program was not offered any other way, but using apt commands.

Using apt to get software, that is compiled for a specific version of say Debian and is kernel specific stuff, does not work in Puppy, unless it too is using the exact same kernel.
So having apt access Debian repositories for software, does not work for kernel specific software, like any kind of drivers. (Graphic, WIFI, hardware, etc....)

TO LINUX SOFTWARE!

Even pet packages, offered on this forum, do not work in all Puppy versions!

[Sofiya]

I can say for sure why I love Synaptic, because I won’t have to look for dependencies, everything will install itself

[bigpup]

Synaptic is using apt and apt-get commands under the hood.

It just does it by giving you GUI interface to do it with.

The biggest issue using either apt or synaptic, is what repository the software is coming from.
Both have a list of specific repositories to look in for the software.
In BookwormPup64, these are specific versions of Debian repositories, with software compiled for a specific Debian version.

If the repository does not have all needed dependency software, both will fail to provide a specific working program install.

These repositories do not have all dependencies BookwormPup64 may need for a specific program deb package.
The dependencies are not there, because the Debian version repository, did not need to provide stuff, that is already in the Debian version as it was released.
The added dependency stuff that is there, is going to be stuff needed to be added to that specific version of Debian, for the downloaded program to work in it.
Which will also provide what is needed in BookwormPup64 for the same program download.
Sometimes the repository is updated with newer versions of software to update the Debian version. So this does provide software that was not there before.
So this does help Puppy get what is needed.

Always do a update of apt or refresh synaptic before using it. So it has the latest info on what is in the repositories it is looking in for software.

It is not going to ever be 100% perfect, getting stuff from repositories that has software not specifically compiled, for a specific Puppy version.
Puppies closest thing to this is the Additional Software section of this forum.
That was the purpose of Puppy version repositories at Ibiblio.com
http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/

[dimkr]

It does what it does very well.

If you don't believe me, force-enable support for Debian repositories in PPM and try to install several big applications. You'll see dependency resolution failure, applications that don't start due to missing dependencies, or your Puppy won't boot anymore. Denial of bugs doesn't make old, orphaned and dangerous software somehow good again.

You can do this by replacing this line in /usr/local/petget/0setup with if false; then.

With a little work, by someone that understands the program code.

As I said - do it yourself or find somebody else to rescue PPM

Until the work is complete, you should thank the Debian developers for providing you with a working package manager, free of charge.

[wizard]

Because Puppy is a stripped down version of larger upstream distros (several different), we will always have package management issues. The wonderful features it has also results in struggling to get some applications to install and run or to uninstall properly. But even the big distros, who only have one base, have some of these problems. Apt and Synaptic work just the same for them, although with fewer bumps.

I will say that I have always thought PPM was more intuitive than other package managers, certainly for new users.

The good news is PPM is still included as a "legacy" application. I've already found a number of applications, installed with Synaptic, needed to be tweaked for Puppy. The solution was to download the packages, modify and rebuild as a .pet,.sfs or even a .deb. The PET system has good tools and the forum has many members who know how to use them.

So, IMO, we can't easily fix the package management issue, but what we on the forum can do better is standardize and maintain good list and repositories of known working applications for each of our Pups.

wizard

[Clarity]

I draw attention to this "Package Management" thread I've created. The thread may be relevant to this recent discussions, here within this BKP64 thread. This discussion can move from this BookworkPUP64 thread to there as it has a broader relevance to WoofCE than this single distro.

[rockedge]

I have a Fossapup64-9.5 running now like 2 maybe more years now that has BOTH apt and PPM that both work as well as they can.

My APT addition comes in the SFS package that @wiak created some time during the WeeDog era, that is a SFS add on to Fossapup64.

I installed a completely functional Zoneminder from an Ubuntu PPA including web server and mysql database needed by Zoneminder using APT. Then found some little problems with the web server install that I fixed using PPM to install PHP7+.

APT keeps this Fossapup64 completely updated like no other Fossapup64. APT and PPM do not communicate is the only problem. That part I have to do manually. But with this system it is possible to use APT to overcome PPM deficiencies and vise-versa. I just keep track of what I used to install what. 90% of this work is done with APT.

I mainly use PPM to BROWSE the Ubuntu repo's.

Never understood why @wiak 's APT SFS add on's didn't become instantly popular. Mine works great for quite a long time now.....

and this Fossapup64 is as up to date as the upstream Ubuntu allows.....almost feels like a rolling update model it's so cool.

P.S. let me not forget this Fossapup64 also has a fully functional Pkg package manager as well that DOES communicate with PPM.
Sometimes I can use all 3 to install complicated stuff.

[Jasper]

@rockedge

Please, can you share a link to wiak's apt_sfs ?

My PPM has been broken for ages and I have never been able to update it as I get an error message in my terminal dialog box. It fails to extract the downloaded xz package lists.

So, have always had to compile applications myself.

[rockedge]

@Jasper In a terminal you can try to use pkg repo-update to possibly fix the PPM's package lists.

You will need to use a fresh frugal installed Fossapup64-9.5.
Download both:
adrv_fossapup64_9.0.5.sfs ------------ 6.60M -> https://rockedge.org/kernels/data/SFS/A ... _9.0.5.sfs
apt_sfs_load_fossa_amd64.sfs ------------ 18.28M -> https://rockedge.org/kernels/data/SFS/A ... _amd64.sfs

Add the adrv SFS to the frugal installation root and reboot. Then use SFS-Load to load up the apt_sfs_load_fossa_amd64.sfs

Then in a terminal try:

Code: Select all

apt update

I always load the devx SFS as well. Your newly assembled version might prove to do really well here.

[dancytron]

I can see why people don't like synaptic. It took a while for me to get used to it in Debian Dog.

It seems like other debian distro's deal with that by building separate simpler, friendlier front ends for apt with recommended apps. MX, Raspberry Pi, are the ones I've actually tried that do that.

In a lot of ways, that's what "Quick Pet" was (is?).

Maybe forking one of those from another distro might be the easiest path.

Dan

[Jasper]

@rockedge

This is my error message prior to any changes

I will grab the files and try the pkg command too

This worked

Going back to the PPM still complains of the same error. However, the contents appear to be updated.

....... little bit confused regarding the second lot of instructions

So a fresh install swapping over the existing adrv for the new smaller one (?)
Load up the new SFS and then use the APT command to get the package list
Save
Then swap back over my original adrv(?)

Is that right?

[rockedge]

You need to keep the smaller adrv SFS you downloaded. I think I could live without what the original provided or I moved those to the ydrv or bdrv.

The second set of instructions will set up the APT package manager using the 2 downloaded SFS files.

The APT package manager will not help with anything PPM. The apt update will grab the repo package lists that APT needs to function.

Is or have you installed the correct version of the xz package for Fossa into the system? The error seems to indicate the system can't find the required version or greater of unxz

[Jasper]

Thanks for the instructions

[fredx181]

1.) PPM quickly and easily handles a program removal with dependencies in a graphical user interface. For dependencies that it is unsure of, an informational window is displayed showing those dependencies. It does not remove those. This is a smart program manager.

2.) Synaptic is the graphical program installer for BookwormPup. It does not remove any dependencies. This is a major drawback. It has two named functions "removal" and "complete removal" Neither actually does more than remove a program, leaving the dependencies "Complete only removes configuration files. It is a misnomer. This is not a smart program manager.

4.) Apt and apt-get are console commands, not graphical program managers. The apt commands provided for program removal are not intuitive, What does remove, autoremove, purge, clean, autoclean mean to a normal user without looking at a man page for each?

5.) None of the apt and apt get commands do what the PPM does.

My understanding: Apt autoremove attempts to remove ALL orphan dependencies in a system, not just the unused dependencies for a specific installed program. It is unclear how it establishes which dependencies are orphaned and which are needed. It does not seem to track what was downloaded as dependencies for a specific program. It is not program oriented, it is system oriented. It provides no information about possible conflict dependencies for a particular program as Puppy does. Maybe it just keeps possible conflicts, maybe it doesn't, who knows? It also does not remove downloaded programs held in a program cache.

• "Complete removal" in Synaptic means : remove the package AND remove the configuration files too (equivalent of apt purge <package(s)> ).
• Equivalent of apt autoremove in Synaptic:
  Click the "Status" button and "auto removable" should be in the list, for example: I installed gimp (and dependencies automatically installed).
  Later I removed (just) gimp and the list of auto-removable appears, see pic below (selecting them all and choose remove will do the same as apt autoremove).

  

  Synaptic "auto-remove"

  Screenshot.png (181.02 KiB) Viewed 1089 times

  EDIT:

  My understanding: Apt autoremove attempts to remove ALL orphan dependencies in a system, not just the unused dependencies for a specific installed program. It is unclear how it establishes which dependencies are orphaned and which are needed.

  Autoremove will remove all packages that were installed earlier, but not needed anymore by any program (in the case of removal of "gimp" example above, all the dependencies can be safely removed).

[bigpup]

It does what it does very well.

If you don't believe me, force-enable support for Debian repositories in PPM and try to install several big applications. You'll see dependency resolution failure, applications that don't start due to missing dependencies, or your Puppy won't boot anymore. Denial of bugs doesn't make old, orphaned and dangerous software somehow good again.

AGAIN to Linux software.

Apt and Synaptic will do the same thing depending on what exact big application you are talking about.

They get everything from Debian specific repositories (Debian Bookworm).

If everything Puppy needs to run the downloaded program.
It already has, or can be gotten from the repositories.
Apt, PPM, or Synaptic will do a good job of installing a working program.

PPM may have some needed tweak to be able to work correctly for these Debian Bookworm repositories.

If some needed dependency stuff is not in the repositories or already in the Puppy version.
The downloaded, installed program, will not work.

This has been a problem in Puppy Linux, ever since they made PPM or any package manager, get stuff from non-specific Puppy version repositories.
None of the software in these repositories, was specifically compiled for the specific Puppy version.
These repositories do not have all possible dependency stuff, a program may need.
Again, they usually do not have dependency stuff, that is already going to be in the release version of the Linux OS, the repository is for.

The only reason some downloaded programs work, is the Puppy version is using core Linux files and programs, that are the same as in the Linux OS, the Puppy version was built from.
So the compiled program package is compiled to use those same core files and programs.
And or the needed stuff can be gotten from the repositories downloading from.

I can tell you for sure the Nvidia driver package the APT or Synaptic can get for BookwormPup64 10.0.4 will not work in it.
Compiled for wrong Linux kernel and its script files are not scripted for how Puppy handles graphics.

I have found other programs, downloaded and installed by APT or Synaptic, that could not get the needed dependency stuff, from the repositories they are set to look in.
Again the stuff is not in the repositories, because it should already be in the Debian Bookworm OS.
BookwormPup64 however does not have it already in it.

No it is not a lot of program packages that will have this problem.
But there will be some.

The good thing is APT and Synaptic will tell you if something needed could not be downloaded and installed.
So it does give you info on what you need to go out into the Internet and find.
PPM did do that too.
But I am not sure about the PPM that is provided in BookwormPup64?
(probably not an issue for PPM, because it is only looking in the Puppy-noarch repository, which is Puppy generic packages, that work in any Puppy version)

TO LINUX SOFTWARE!

Note:
Before using APT.
Do an apt update to have latest info on what is in the repositories it looks in.

Before using Synaptic.
Do a reload to do the same for it.

This info is used to find and figure out what to download, install. or is not there, that is needed.
.
.

[sunilrathaur]

Thonny not giving results. various msgs from /root/apps/thonny. if anyone has solved it, please reply

[bigpup]

thonny is working for me.

I installed it by using apt .

In a terminal:

Code: Select all

apt install thonny

.

Screenshot.jpg (24.67 KiB) Viewed 831 times

If this does not help you.
Give some details on what exactly you are trying to do and the results you are getting.

If you need help on how to use thonny.
You need to go the the thonny web site and get it there.
.
.

[dancytron]

Thonny not giving results. various msgs from /root/apps/thonny. if anyone has solved it, please reply

You've got to give us more than that. What messages? What were you trying to do?

There were some permission/security changes with bookworm that broke some python applications.

[sunilrathaur]

in shell
%Run -c $EDITOR_CONTENT

there is no led blinking.. even when I give the standard program from Raspberry Pi Picoforum

Thanks
Sunil

[dancytron]

Just a shot in the dark, but the change in Bookworm has something to do with this (it's for the Raspberry Pi, but I think the issue is the same for all Debian Bookworm).

https://blog.piwheels.org/debian-bookwo ... erry-pi-5/

https://pi-plates.com/debian-bookworm-and-python/

I have no idea if this is your problem.

[keniv]

I've been given a Toshiba Satellite L750 running Win 10 very slowly. Haven't use windows in a long while but for the moment I've left it in place. I've made an install of Bookworm64 10.0.4 to a USB drive using FrugalPup Installers>e4StickPup. In the passed I've done this manually but the "automated" method worked very well and I'm posting from it now. Everything seems to work bar the SD card reader. This does appear in lsusb part of the output of which is shown below.

Code: Select all

# lsusb
Bus 002 Device 004: ID 0bda:0138 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. RTS5138 Card Reader Controller

The card reader is of the type were an adapter is required to read a micro SD card, I have three of these and tried all three without success .I also have a USB card reader adapter into which I can plug in the micro SD card adapter. If I plug this into a USB socket I can read the micro SD card which tends to suggest that both the micro SD card and it's adapter are working. I am wondering if this is an issue with a module or driver not loading or perhaps not present for this SD card reader but I am not sure how to proceed from here. Any help with this problem would be much appreciated.

Regards,

Ken.

[dancytron]

I've been given a Toshiba Satellite L750 running Win 10 very slowly. Haven't use windows in a long while but for the moment I've left it in place. I've made an install of Bookworm64 10.0.4 to a USB drive using FrugalPup Installers>e4StickPup. In the passed I've done this manually but the "automated" method worked very well and I'm posting from it now. Everything seems to work bar the SD card reader. This does appear in lsusb part of the output of which is shown below.

Code: Select all

# lsusb
Bus 002 Device 004: ID 0bda:0138 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. RTS5138 Card Reader Controller

The card reader is of the type were an adapter is required to read a micro SD card, I have three of these and tried all three without success .I also have a USB card reader adapter into which I can plug in the micro SD card adapter. If I plug this into a USB socket I can read the micro SD card which tends to suggest that both the micro SD card and it's adapter are working. I am wondering if this is an issue with a module or driver not loading or perhaps not present for this SD card reader but I am not sure how to proceed from here. Any help with this problem would be much appreciated.

Regards,

Ken.

Double check you have firmware-realtek installed. Install it if you don't.

Seems like it should work from this.

http://linux-hardware.org/?id=usb:0bda-0138

[bigpup]

What format is the SD card?

You are assuming the card reader works.

Does it work with Windows 10 that you left on the computer?

Have the SD card in the reader before booting the computer with BookwormPup64.
Any help?

When Windows 10 is shutdown make sure to do a complete normal shutdown.
Do not shutdown in hibernate!!

In the computers manual it has this about SD cards. Not sure why it even has this. But maybe it has a size limit to be able to read.

The maximum capacity of SD memory cards is 2GB. The maximum
capacity of SDHC memory cards is 32GB. The maximum capacity of
SDXC memory cards is 64GB.

[keniv]

@dancytron

Double check you have firmware-realtek installed. Install it if you don't.

Below is the output from pFind. I presume the ones that are important are those starting /lib/modules/ and /usr/lib/modules/. I don't see any that seem to refer to a card reader. I've had a look at your link. Much of what it contains I am not familiar with, however, looking at this

The device is supported by kernel versions 2.6.0 and newer according to the LKDDb:

would tend to suggest that the Bookworm kernel (I'm using the one that came with 10.0.4) should contain this driver. Am I correct in thinking this? If this is not the case I do not understand how to source this driver. Can you tell me how it's done or point me in the right direction.

@bigpup

What format is the SD card?

The smallest micro SD card I have is a HC at 16GB and is formatted as fat32.

When Windows 10 is shutdown make sure to do a complete normal shutdown.
Do not shutdown in hibernate!!

Yes I found this out when I tried to change the boot order so as to boot from the USB drive and found the machine wouldn't respond to pressing F12. After a bit of a search I found it was set to "fast boot". It's now in normal shutdown.

Have the SD card in the reader before booting the computer with BookwormPup64.

I forgot to try this before I started this post. When I submit this I will try it and report back.

Thanks to you both for your responses,

Ken.

Edit: I booted with the SD card in the card reader and it was recognised. I mounted it and could read the contents. I saved at this point and shut the machine down. I then rebooted but without the card in the reader. When fully booted I put the card in the reader and this time it was recognised and again I could mount it and read the contents and so I'm hoping my problem is over though I'm still a bit baffled as why this should have happened. Anyway thanks again for the help.

Ken

[dancytron]

Search for "realtek" in synaptic and see what is installed. By just name at first. Longshot that it isn't installed.

[keniv]

@dancytron
I think our posts must have crossed when I made my edit.

Search for "realtek" in synaptic and see what is installed

I did this but only the one at the top of the list seemed to be installed if I'm reading synaptic correctly. Please see attached. The lower panel shows a long list of what this contains some of which show what they are for as it says at the top of this panel i.e. ethernet, wifi and bluetooth but no mention of card reader. I presume one of the others must be the correct one or it's elsewhere as the card reader is now working.

Ken.

[bigpup]

I booted with the SD card in the card reader and it was recognized. I mounted it and could read the contents. I saved at this point and shut the machine down. I then rebooted but without the card in the reader. When fully booted I put the card in the reader and this time it was recognized and again I could mount it and read the contents and so I'm hoping my problem is over though I'm still a bit baffled as why this should have happened. Anyway thanks again for the help.

Most likely hot plug support.

Puppy has never been 100% perfect with it.

I too wonder if before you ever put a SD card in the drive and booted.

There were any entries for the SD card drive in /mnt/ or /dev/

what is in /dev/ is more important.

I think this is used as part of how hot plugging works.

I know you can look in these locations and find entries for stuff you may not now have mounted.
But were mounted at some point.

Also each type drive is handled by the computers bios and the specific controllers in slightly different ways.
So the SD card reader may be detected as a device, but not an active device, unless a SD card is in it the first time you boot.

[vtpup]

PPM is unmaintained for years, it's unreliable (especially when used with Debian packages) and it makes it very easy to break your system.

Anyone who wants PPM back should either:

1. Volunteer to maintain PPM: fix known bugs, fix its architecture (for example, make it understand a situation where package a depends on b or c - if user installs a but c is present, no need to install b), make it less CPU intensive and make it faster, or
2. Find somebody else to do this

This is like playing telephone. I barely recognize what I was saying.

Um, I have no particular love for PPM, as stated already. The issue I addressed was that Synaptic does not have a method of effectively removing a program and its dependencies, and therefore creates bloat over the long term. Nor does apt, or aptitude.

I verified this with actual tests: Neither Synaptic, apt, or aptitude and their various command alternatives successfully removed an installed program and its dependencies. To repeat, what I've already written:

Clean install, steps tested:

"1.) I added a program with Synaptic. 50 packages were downloaded and installed.
2.) In Synaptic I marked it for "complete removal", then executed. Result? 1 package was removed
3.) I opened up console and entered apt autoremove. Result? 14 packages were removed.
4.) 35 packages were not removed."

None of the methods and explanations of apt, Synaptics, and aptitude actually dealt with this. It's a problem. If you install a program with 50 deps via Synaptic, then do a "complete removal" with Synaptics and 49 deps are left behind, that sucks. if you then try command line apt autoremove and 35 deps are left behind, that also sucks. As a result any well used system will become bloated. Hey and what if one of those newly installed deps is causing a problem? It's not just a question of bloat. One shouldn't have to hunt for each dep by hand 35 times and remove each one individually to clean up a system.

This is the issue I hoped would be addressed in discussion. I don't really care what package manager we use for the supposedly "new standard" puppy, it ought to be able to remove a program with its concurrently installed unneeded dependencies when it is asked to.PPM did a good job of this. RIP, okay, but replace it with something that can actually do what one would minimally expect when clicking a button called remove, or uninstall, or completely remove, or purge, or autoremove, or whatever you want to call it. How about actually doing it?.

[dancytron]

Unfortunately, the answer in Debian type distros is that synaptic and apt don't clean up after themselves. It's a pia.

This seems to be a linux theme, because they don't clean up log files or any of the other cruft by default either.

In Debian Dog and similar distros I use Bleachbit and it cleans up after synaptic and also the other log files, caches and cruft that builds up.

A lot of times I'll run it before I reboot or save2flash.

edit: Bleachbit is a powerful tool and it will delete everything you tell it to without question.