Storing pupsave.sfs on separate partition

[trawglodyte]

Up until now I have been putting frugal installed pups on a partition in their own folder, and keeping the pupsave.sfs's in the default location. That works splendidly, but I am now trying something different.

I boot the .iso from Ventoy, in my case Ventoy installed on hard drive, but it could be a Ventoy USB, that part doesn't matter. What I also have is a partition on my hard drive in ext4 labeled PupSave that I want to keep my pupsave.sfs's on. What I tried was creating a folder on that partition named "BookwormPup64_10.0.4" which is the puppy.iso I booted and want to make a pupsave.sfs for.

When I reboot, I go through the usual procedure for making the first pupsave.sfs, but I change the folder location to /dev/nvme0n1p3/BookwormPup64_10.0.4 which I'm confident is the partition and folder I want to save in, cross my fingers, but no... this way doesn't work, it doesn't make a pupsave.sfs. I'm fairly sure I spelled everything correctly. I also know the partition was mounted.

So if this doesn't work, how do I get it to put the pupsave.sfs in that folder on that partition? And if I can get that accomplished, also make sure when I launch the .iso the next time it will load the pupsave.sfs or give me options for backup-pupsave.sfs I may have stored there?

@Clarity Do you know?

[trawglodyte]

I've tried what I described above a couple more times, just to make sure I spelled everything right. I also tried /mnt/nvme0n1p3/Bookwormpup64_10.0.4 instead of /dev/nvme0n1p3/BookwormPup64_10.0.4 thinking the mount point rather than referencing the partition with /dev might do the trick. Still no save.

Could this be the issue? Even though I've specified by /dev/nvme0n1p3 (an ext4 partition), the sanity check says the partition is "ventoy" with "iso9660" filesystem.

Screenshot(1).png (66.37 KiB) Viewed 1404 times

[TerryH]

I've tried what I described above a couple more times, just to make sure I spelled everything right. I also tried /mnt/nvme0n1p3/Bookwormpup64_10.0.4 instead of /dev/nvme0n1p3/BookwormPup64_10.0.4 thinking the mount point rather than referencing the partition with /dev might do the trick. Still no save.

Could this be the issue? Even though I've specified by /dev/nvme0n1p3 (an ext4 partition), the sanity check says the partition is "ventoy" with "iso9660" filesystem.
Screenshot(1).png

ISO9660 is an Optical Disc image format. Other than the original data, it can't be written to.

[trawglodyte]

checked permissions just to make sure that wasn't the problem. Looks fine to me, I'm root.

Screenshot.png (79.59 KiB) Viewed 1396 times

@TerryH You think that is the problem? To be clear, the partition I want to save to is labeled PupSave and is ext4. I'm not trying to save to ventoy ISO96660. I just thought I would try the usual options it gives you on first save, but perhaps I need to tell it in some other manner first what the partition and format it is?

[TerryH]

Even though you are attempting to write to the ext4 partition, it appears that the save process is still attempting to write to the ventoy partition. I have very little experience with booting with ventoy and zero success with getting persistence to work. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be able to assist.

[williwaw]

it appears that the save process is still attempting to write to the ventoy partition.

is it showing the ventoy partition for informational purposes only because thats the partition the pup.sfs which you booted from is located?

perhaps the feature is just for naming and not for relocating outside the usual search paths of the initrd.

boot parameters are more useful in your application I think.
a long shot experiment would be to let it save to its default location, move it to where you desire and symlink it back

savemark, if available in your pup, may offer something better than firstsave

[mikewalsh]

I think, TBH.....ISO9660 formatting 'issues' aside......it simply boils down to the fact that traditionally, the 'save' - -file OR -folder - is usually placed directly alongside the Pup/Dog/whatever install (certainly upon 'first run'). You can always re-locate the save if you need to.......I've done this by the simple expedient of moving the 'save' then sym-linking it back to its former location. Pup appears quite happy with this.

Needless to say, for those sym-links to work you need to be using a Linux file-system. I've been using Ext3 since I can remember; it's always been dead reliable.

I can't comment on how more recent installers work - FrugalPup/StickPup, etc - for the simple reason that I haven't used a GUI-based 'installer' since the very early days. I have my own 'quick'n'dirty' install routine that works for me, and which I've been using for years. In this respect I'm not much help to the 'noobs'...

Mike.

[trawglodyte]

I double-checked to make sure of this. When I do a "normal" frugal install with frugal installer, it also says ventoy ISO96660. It also does not create a pupsave.sfs. But, of course, with that method when I boot again it is to the vmlinuz and initrd.gz on the hard drive and THEN I can make my first save.

@Clarity and @williwaw were telling me about booting from .iso with or without Ventoy and keeping your save file elsewhere. Not gonna lie, I don't like it so far. But maybe there is something I'm missing. I think even if I was booting from a USB I would probably just try frugal install of the pup on the USB.

The only thing that would be cool would be that if you COULD boot the .iso from Ventoy and make your save file without much hassle, trying another pup would just be downloading the .iso. If you have rEFIned and ventoy it would be waiting for you to select when you reboot without making any menu-entry or anything.

I sort of think if I could add a paramater of pmedia=usbflash to the boot, I'd have a fighting chance. It defaults to pupmode 5, and I don't think that's helping me make the first savefile. Getting Ventoy to do that looks complicated, if possible at all.

If I haven't confused you enough yet, here is one last detail. My Ventoy parition is formatted ext4, not the default (exfat or fat32, I can't remember) This has some downsides, I can no longer run a Windows.iso installer with Ventoy for example. I can no longer drop .iso's in from Windows. I just do it because it's easier for me to put an automount in fstab and I feel a little better about reading/writing to the partition from several Linux OS's. I don't think this is relevant to getting the first pupsave done, but thought I'd mention it.

[TerryH]

it appears that the save process is still attempting to write to the ventoy partition.

is it showing the ventoy partition for informational purposes only because thats the partition the pup.sfs which you booted from is located?

perhaps the feature is just for naming and not for relocating outside the usual search paths of the initrd.

boot parameters are more useful in your application I think.
a long shot experiment would be to let it save to its default location, move it to where you desire and symlink it back

savemark, if available in your pup, may offer something better than firstsave

I tried ventoy briefly and gave up due to difficulties with getting persistence to work. I only attempted to boot other Linux distros, not Puppy or Kennel distros. I have wiped the USB I used for Ventoy

[trawglodyte]

a long shot experiment would be to let it save to its default location,

This is not possible, the default is blank when you boot an .iso. As I said, usually when I do frugal install the only thing I get done is taking the files from the .iso and copying them to a folder on a partition. It's when I boot to THAT, then I can make a save. You told me you boot to .iso with grub. The first time you do that, how do you make a save file? Do you use the optioins it gives you when you reboot or shutdown, or some other way?

I think I know a way to create a save, but it's not very simple. Even if I do that I have to figure out how to boot this .iso and not be in pupmode 5 if I want to load that save file on the fly or something. I just need someone who boots from .iso to tell me how they make their first save file. If there isn't an easy to understand way to do that, then I'm going to give up on this experiment and stick to frugal installs.

[Clarity]

... I boot the .iso from Ventoy, i...

@Clarity Do you know?

I sent a PM and it says something similar to what I think you want. And I recently responded with similar actions and step moments ago on another thread to another member.

Persistence is really very simple, to me, maybe because I settled into it few years back with the help of @gyrog and the facilities he's managed for all WoofCE PUPs.

I have a partition on a system drive; SAME AS you.
I have a folder on that partition where 'sessions' for all distros are saved; SAME AS you.

The following shares info on how the booting forum distros find everything without user interventions when they launch the chosen ISO file:

• WoofCE
  In the BOOTISOS folder, there is a file named SAVESPEC that guides ALL modern WoofCE PUPs where they will find or where they are to manage sessions. Its been so long that I cannot remember when or which PUP actually created that for me, but it is there. SAVESPEC tells the PUP all it needs for booting and session management. This is WoofCE's automation for PUP and user assistance.

• KLs
  The KLs are prebuilt to make all of this so easy for its users. If the user already has a partition that is named Persistence if will find and managed the sessions properly in the Sessions folder. With such, everything in KL's session management is automatic.

• DOGs
  They do not, presently, have an automation facility. So when launched, the user must interrupt at DOG's menu to enter the parm guiding session management's location.

I do not have problems with ISOs finding their sessions with the present arrangement I have settled into for forum distro boot+session management.

For those having problems or have had problems, please explain, as maybe, something is overlooked in past instructions for booting forum ISO files.

[trawglodyte]

@Clarity

Can you please dumb this down even more for me? I think you are telling me to try to put a file named SAVESPEC in the BOOTISOS folder with my puppy.iso's. Where do I get this file or how do I make it?

I will change the label and name of my partition from PupSave to Persistence, just so I'm fully doing exactly what you say.

I don't know what KL's is, do I have to do something or is that just informational?

You say to interrupt at DOG's menu and enter paramaters or something. I usually just click the .iso in the Ventoy menu. What do I need to do differently?

I have found in Ventoy I can select grub2 mode but that hasn't helped me so far. I have found complicated instructions about creating .json but I don't think that's what you're talking about.

I'm happy to play along here and test this out, but frankly I can frugal install a pup on a USB or hard drive with a few clicks and and rEFInd will have it ready to boot for me. This is not seeming like a superior way of doing it to me. Not that you shouldn't if you like it. I just don't think it fits my agenda of figuring out the simplest way for me to tell people to install pup's, or creating scripts or small apps to make it even easier.

[trawglodyte]

FYI - I attempted using the "default" which was just a blank path. When I do this it says it is creating a save file on ventoy, but it's not there. I expected this, Ventoy doesn't generally like anything other than .iso's on it's partition. I think this is why @Clarity keeps telling us it's important to put the puppy .iso's in a folder. It does let you make a folder and put the .iso's in it.

[trawglodyte]

@Clarity What I need is something like this.

1. Install Ventoy to USB or hard drive. DONE
2. Make folder on Ventoy parition named BOOTISOS. DONE
3. Put pup.iso in folder BOOTISOS. DONE
4. Put file SAVESPEC in folder BOOTISOS. NOT DONE
5. Make parition labeled and named Persistence. DONE
6. Boot Ventoy and select your puppy.iso from menu.
7. Quick Setup...

Now I want to make my first save, how do I do it? (After you tell me how to get or make the SAVESPEC file). Did I miss any steps? Will the SAVESPEC file cause Puppy.iso to save to my Persistence partition? Is that what the deal is?

[Clarity]

Here's my SAVESPEC from my BOOTISOS folder.

• Remove the "fake.gz" extension and place in your BOOTISOS folder.

• Inspect it so you understand what it is telling the WoofCE (aka BookwormPUP4, etc) booting PUPs.

• Boot any WoofCE ISO file, hit the enter-key at its boot menu.

• Without doing anything to the PUP at its menu time, it will find where its session is or is to be.

Let us know your results.

[williwaw]

You told me you boot to .iso with grub. The first time you do that, how do you make a save file? Do you use the optioins it gives you when you reboot or shutdown, or some other way?

using vanilladpup 9 and grub2 with the iso boot stanza posted monday in the commander thread, I commented out the psave as follows

Code: Select all

  linux (loop)/vmlinuz find_iso=$isopath #psave=feafedf8:/saves/vanilladpupsave-x

and it boots into pupmode 5

firstrun offers a few options. i select a partition, not encrypted, added a name and it just makes the save folder.

with psave= in the kernel line, you should be booting into pupmode 12 or 13 and not being offered firstrun at shutdown

12 vs 13 is controlled by the pmedia= parameter

I have never used ventoy until today and didnt test vanillapup there

[Clarity]

Sorry @trawglodyte for the confusion I may have caused in nomenclature; see if this helps;

• "WoofCE" PUPs are found on the forum, here.

• "KL" distros are found on the forum, here.

• "DOG" distros are found on the forum, here and here2.

Hope this helps

[trawglodyte]

@Clarity

I've done this...
Install Ventoy to USB or hard drive. DONE
Make folder on Ventoy parition named BOOTISOS. DONE
Put pup.iso in folder BOOTISOS. DONE
Put file SAVESPEC in folder BOOTISOS. DONE
Make parition labeled and named Persistence. DONE
Boot Ventoy and select your puppy.iso from menu.

Quick Setup

Now I do first save and it says saving to ventoy like before, but no save file like before.
I look in Ventoy parition, no save file. In BOOTISOS folder, no save file. On Persistence partition, no save file.

I reboot BookwormPup64_10.0.4 again and I'm back at Quick Setup, which tells me no save file has been loaded.

What did I miss?? You are telling me what to do at a Puppy boot menu, there is no Puppy boot menu. It goes from Ventoy to loading the vmlinuz and intird.gz. Is there where I'm supposed to hit enter and try to intervene? Then what?

I've tried this multiple times with SAVESPEC in place.

[Clarity]

SAVESPEC or use of the psave parm (ie session parms) avoid this condition at shutdown

Use parms to avoid this occurrence

Shutdown Verificaton screen.png (70.81 KiB) Viewed 1229 times

[Clarity]

Something is very odd???

Do me this single favor.

1. Put a SG2D ISO or IMG file in your BOOTISOS folder, please. And launch it from the Ventoy list

2. When the SG2D comes up, ONLY hit the enter key

3. It will find and list all things bootable on your system as well as the ISO files for selection at the bottom of that list

4. Scroll to find that problematic ISO and boot it pristine.

5. AT its shutdown let me know what you see....please.

.
I'm betting we will see something differ that we can had to WoofCE development.

[trawglodyte]

SAVESPEC or use of the psave parm (ie session parms) avoid this condition at shutdownShutdown Verificaton screen.png

HOW!! How @Clarity I have SAVESPEC in the folder. I am booting BookwormPup64_10.0.4.iso with Ventoy exactly how you said. Where do I put "session parms"?? You want me to put something called SG2D or IMG in my BOOTISOS folder., where do I get that or how do I make it??

[trawglodyte]

Thank you @Clarity Here is a link to download SG2D (Super Grub2 Disk) iso's, zips, efi's, torrents. There are several versions, I am going to try the x86_64 UEFI only iso for my system.

https://www.supergrubdisk.org/2022/12/2 ... downloads/

[Clarity]

If you have a problem, here are copies of what I have used. They all work. Its a choice to take one or all and put into your BOOTISOS folder for Ventoy launch.

[trawglodyte]

I don't know if this is success yet, but it is progress.... our updated procedure for using Puppy.iso's from Ventoy and keeping your save file on a seperate partition is this.

1. Install Ventoy to USB or hard drive.
2. Make folder on Ventoy parition named BOOTISOS.
3. Put pup.iso of your choice in folder BOOTISOS.
4. Put file SAVESPEC in folder BOOTISOS. **
5. Put SG2D.iso in BOOTISOS folder. **
6. Make parition labeled and named Persistence.
7. Boot Ventoy and select your your SG2D.iso from menu.
8. Press enter for default option to scan your system for bootables.
9. In the resulting menu, scroll to the bottom and select your puppy.iso
10. After doing Quick Setup (and whatever else you'd like), Menu>Leave>Reboot or Shutdown
11. Default options should create a save file on your Persistence partition in a new folder named Sessions . You can boot back to your puppy with save included from Ventoy>SG2D, but not directly from Ventoy (I need to do some testing here, got an idea).

** Here is SAVESPEC, https://disk.yandex.com/d/C01sPywTUWN6BA download and rename SAVESPEC without .fake.gz before placing in BOOTISOS folder.
** Here is SG2D with download options. https://www.supergrubdisk.org/2022/12/2 ... downloads/ if that link is dead download the .iso at SourceForge https://sourceforge.net/projects/superg ... 6s2-beta1/

[trawglodyte]

@Clarity So booting from Super Grub2 was quite different right away, the menu looked different. But to respond with what you asked about the save screens...

First, I got a "save in folder" option which I hadn't before.

Screenshot(2).png (39.03 KiB) Viewed 1166 times

Then, the sanity check was different. This time it looked like this.

Screenshot(4).png (38.88 KiB) Viewed 1166 times

It did make a save file in a new folder it made on my Persistence partition named Sessions, and when I boot BookwormPup10.0.4 the same way. (In my case from rEFInd to Ventoy to Super Grub 2 to the BookwormPup64_10.0.4.iso, it does boot and load with the save file. I think I'm in Pupmode 12 now, def not Pupmode 13.

I tried just booting by clicking BookwormPup_10.0.4.iso from Ventoy menu and that does not load my save file and I can't load on the fly because it is in Pupmode 5. But I wonder if why that is is because I'm going from rEFInd to Ventoy?? I'm going to change BIOS settings to boot straight to Ventoy and see if I can get a save file that way. I haven't tried that yet.

[Clarity]

Hello @trawglodyte

...I tried just booting by clicking BookwormPup_10.0.4.iso from Ventoy menu and that does not load my save file and I can't load on the fly because it is in Pupmode 5. ...

The answer to this problem from WoofCE development is NOT Supported. They were made aware of this problem months ago along with methods to identify the condition that it boots to. I am hopeful that @peebee, @gyrog and other WoofCE developers will take note and resolve. This is not a Ventoy problem: Ventoy exposes the problem.

I am not is a position to test, over the next few hours, but I ask to test when you can:

1. from the Ventoy list, launch BookwormPUP64.

2. at its menu, edit the top line's stanza (or the RAM line's stanza)

3. at the end of the linux line add psave=Persistence:/Sessions/

Let me know what you see.

There is NO priority on this request, but if soon, I'd like to compare findings when booting this WoofCE PUP.

BTW: @radky is there a way to add a newer version of QEMU to this PUPs Repo. There is an update that should improve support consistent with this PUP's Pipewire subsystem.

[Clarity]

P.S. @trawglodyte Thanks for keeping us abreast of your progress.

My Summary (that you should add to with anything you feel appropriate)

• Ventoy can be installed on a system drive

• That system drive will boot and list ISO files

• Those ISO files will launch without issues

• Some of the ISO files (particularly the WoofCEs) may experience problems in boot as well as in its session management as is architected (this refers to SAVESPEC file's presence and also the architected "psave=..." parm)

  1. These problematic ISO files can be booted when launched from a SG2D ISO file list

  2. When launched from SG2D, expect those WoofCE files to behave within architected structure.

Additional Notes
This use of a system drive for Ventoy and other OSes has many advantages. The system drives are consistent, stable and faster than almost every USB devices. Thus some of the headaches with USB and ISO file timing sensitivity are erased.

You are demonstrating what was replicated with a student, days ago.

[trawglodyte]

@Clarity

I understand that you like doing your Puppy's this way. But I don't sense you've tried many alternatives. I think there's a much better, easier way now, especially since BookwormPup64 can make an efi entry without damaging the Windows Boot Manager, and also install rEFInd. I'm going to show how to do it by frugally installing whatever pups you want to a USB, so long as one of them is BookwormPup64_10.0.4 or BookwormPup64_10.0.3.

I only wish I had the techonology to record my screen as I reboot, go to BIOS settings and so forth. But I can put it in simple to follow step-by-step instructions, and that's something you struggle to do. Despite having so much faith in your way of things.

This is a way someone with only Windows on their disk can get going with Puppies very quickly and easily, without any partitioning of their hard drive.

[trawglodyte]

1. from the Ventoy list, launch BookwormPUP64.

2. at its menu, edit the top line's stanza (or the RAM line's stanza)

3. at the end of the linux line add psave=Persistence:/Sessions/

As usual, I have NO IDEA what you are talking about. When I click the BookwormPup.iso from Ventoy, it launches BookwormPup. What Menu?? The Menu button that displays my programs??

Any changes I make in the program don't matter because it won't save. If there is a way I can specify boot parameters you are just going to have to tell me how to do it in English that makes sense.

[Clarity]

I'm always open for ideas.

I have NOT found easier ways to accomplish booting and session management of forum (and other) distros or OSes (including a UNIX and Windows).

With the methods we have discussed, NO user effort(s) are required other than a simple ISO file download to their folder and launch from a list.This has been published before indicating the relief from what users use to do in the past. Even the people/technologist/students worked with in the past express this to me: "That all I need to do... I just download, now." The methods, worked on, intends to expose this simplicity.

Can it be done thru editing files, moving things, investing time in code, doing additional partitioning, making additional folders for this or that manage different distro, etc? Yes, and I understand those. BUT the current method removes any/all of that such that it is now basically a click to desktop knowing that the intended desktop and subsequent session use will behave as one expects with NONE of the past requirements for what we know as frugal.

The ONLY thing, once you have the boot environment set with the folder (as you have) is to download the ISO file, click it from a list. There is nothing else needed the boot environment is set once, forever with ISO files coming and going as any user pleases. The behavior always remains the same with no user efforts or changes.

For persistences/sessions of distros, there's little to nothing needed except to insure the boot is directed by either architected means of each distro.

Thus, we have

• a single location where everything boots from in their original dress

• a single location where each session is managed by the running distro

Simply simple for all uses no matter their background knowledge or experience in/out of Linux world.

You can either PM with your ideas of a way we can test your layouts/plans if you want to test privately or open a thread for your new method. I'll help where I can.

Any improvements you find for even the things, here, you have been working, I would like to know.