With the Recent Quittings and Resignations......

[greengeek]

For those who want the source of this quote:
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/w ... sions/4209

Thank you for the time and effort you have already put into addressing problems inherent in Puppy's structure and design. That focus on drilling down into the real core of issues is important in terms of ensuring long term useability and stability. Hope you don't abandon ship.
.

@Clarity suggested that the Admins and Mods should be the only ones involved in defining what and what is not acceptable.

I agree. But I also think it would be helpful if the standards defined by the Mods were available to all members for the sake of consistency and general understanding. The thread in question allowed certain insults to be repeated many times without censure. I feel this was unhealthy.

[dimkr]

Many problems with Puppy can be solved by deleting code, not by adding more code.

Here, some examples of contributions to woof-CE that broke stuff, never worked (probably not tested by the author) and general signs of low quality code:

https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/3443
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/p ... -132909327 (the commit that made 01micko leave)
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/3475
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/3824
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/4087
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/3499
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/2302
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/3954
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/3770
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/3600
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/3585
...

woof-CE is a very dead project, if you judge by the number of contributors, frequency of contributions, and the areas the currently active contributors touch (most configuration files, not code):

https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/w ... -14&type=c
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/w ... s/testing/

If you want Puppy to improve - IMHO you should focus on quality over quantity, and start deleting stuff you don't want to maintain yourself (unless you find a volunteer).

• Improve package management and SFS loading

Nobody maintains PPM for many years, I think it's about time to remove it. Every time I proposed to remove PPM, people who can't or don't want to maintain PPM themselves opposed my proposal. Puppy is a do-ocracy, but sadly, it works both ways: things are left to rot and die when nobody 'does'.

I also think that any attempt to write an "in-house" package manager for Puppy is doomed to fail, unless Puppy becomes a fully independent distro built from its own binary packages. Otherwise, you're trying to emulate some other distro's package manager or rewrite it, and the package manager most compatible with package manager x is x itself.

• Improve bluetooth support since bluetooth speakers were all at rage

woof-CE supports PipeWire and Blueman. Those who produce Puppy releases with plain ALSA instead of PipeWire should ask themselves why they're doing this, because applications that use plain ALSA or the PulseAudio API keep working with PipeWire, and having no Bluetooth audio support is a big price to pay for a negligible reduction of Puppy's size.

• Improve modern hardware support

woof-CE can build a Puppy using a rebuilt Debian kernel, with ₁₃₀ configuration changes (https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/w ... s/bookworm) out of 10k+ lines of configuration, and it can use Debian's firmware. If Debian's hardware support is broad enough, dpup's should be as well. If it isn't, you're complaining about Linux in general, and this needs to be fixed out of the scope of Puppy.

And woof-CE can build a Puppy with a native Wayland desktop and no X.Org - none of my old 32 bit laptops can run a recent Puppy with X.Org anymore. Modesetting is broken (kernel panics or X.Org crashes) and nobody maintains X.Org, the old Intel driver and other legacy things nobody uses anymore. To fix this and retain support for such old hardware, somebody needs to adopt X.Org and big piles of pre-KMS code, both in X.Org drivers and the kernel. There are many Wayland haters, but none of them are willing to put in the work of maintaining X.Org.

To make things worse, I'm starting to see software (especially games) that still wasn't ported to Wayland, but runs better under Wayland (through Xwayland) compared to "natively", through X.Org, because all major distros switched to Wayland already and very few users run this software on X.Org. Steam is a good example, I still haven't seen a single game that runs natively under Wayland, but everything works great with Wayland and I'm having trouble under X.Org. This trend will continue, and my two main laptops (from 2011 and 2015) work perfectly with Wayland. Those who produce Puppy releases with X.Org should ask themselves if they truly want to limit hardware support to old computers that don't support KMS (probably <2010 hardware) and therefore don't support Wayland, because the situation is going to get much worse as more software starts breaking under X.Org, or even dropping support for X.Org (like RHEL 10).

Hope you don't abandon ship.

Work in https://github.com/vanilla-dpup/woof-CE continues as usual

[wiak]

I deleted 2 Topics just now. Why?

Because I feel disheartened and defeated. All of you must be a lot smarter, more caring, better informed and educated than myself because these Topics made me more upset at what people said to each other than the subject the topics were about.

Leaving the topics open and free...criticism......wanting to close it...criticism.....

And back on this thread topic, the above situation is indeed a problem.

Whilst this forum is a social club of sorts, it is a social club concerned with Linux and more specifically, usually, a certain type of Linux distro design, which is something we all share an interest in. We do not, however, necessarily share an interest, or have similar views in some or maybe most of anything else. That situation is not a matter of who is right or wrong or whose 'truth' is right or wrong.

Whilst I understand @fredx181 long advocated support for the Off-Topic and the Truly-off-topic area, and I also feel a bit torn about the matter, I cannot help thinking that not having these areas would do us no harm. I honestly do not really need to know the colour of my neighbours underwear, whether that has a claimed truer colour than those of others or not, and I prefer not to know. Better just to be here for the Linux side of things (and we have had enough arguments over what is right and wrong in terms of discussed/preferred distros anyway).

Of course, whilst these off-topic areas exist, we are going to read their content and respond accordingly. Remove the area, and at least we spend our social chit-chat here about Linux related matters (albeit with a bit of social interaction, the good and the bad of it, somewhat intermingled - we are not robots).

But... if we do decide (vote?) to remove off-topics (and the only off-topics I'd happily see stay in that case would be technical-Linux-related off-topics), then we should not accept back-door methods of advocating individual beliefs, political or faith-related, either. In particular, some push their ideologies through the forum 'signature' mechanism, and in doing so can make statements and claims that cannot be challenged in normal thread posts because of the rule about avoiding off-topic comments. When such signatures are tolerated, we are forced into reading religious, or political, or conspiracy theory, or hate speech propaganda. At least in truly-off-topic threads we understand the free for all name of the game, but have at least the right to challenge and negate what we disagree with. Free speech implies right to free reply which signature-based tricks deny. That is why, it is understandable that countries often deny the wearing of party-political based dress at school, or religious symbology. Whilst it is fine for an individual to believe in whatever they wish, it is not fine to push it down the throat of everyone else who would prefer not to hear and prefer not to argue about what they do not come to this forum for.

[puppy_apprentice]

this was the result of the analysis of Topic pages 1,5,10,15 .... 55 :
Number of posts 337, posted by 23 members
172 posts (51%) by just 3 members
205 posts (60%) by just 4 members
237 posts (70%) by just 5 members
258 posts (76%) by just 6 members

I wonder which group I belonged to

[stemsee]

Yes, please release who the members were in those stats.

[wiak]

Inquisition
/ (ˌɪnkwɪˈzɪʃən) /

noun
the act of inquiring deeply or searchingly; investigation

a deep or searching inquiry, esp a ruthless official investigation of individuals in order to suppress revolt or root out the unorthodox

[puppy_apprentice]

I noticed that with the deletion of two topics I lost some thanks. I jumped HerrBert in the ranking, and now I've dropped. Why, why, why? Now I'm going to cry

[mikewalsh]

.....or even dropping support for X.Org (like RHEL 10).

And that's IT, TBH. In a nutshell.

Whether we like it or not, RHEL dictates the direction of Linux development.....probably because their devs contribute more to Linux kernel & infrastructure development than everybody else combined. And, sooner or later, everybody else "steps into line"......because by doing so, everything just "works". And continues to do so.

(The fact that Lennart Poettering is a complete plank - AND a right 'primadonna' into the bargain - is neither here nor there. In the grand scheme of things, it's irrelevant..!)

Why "spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar"? (Even though, in truth, it does detract from some of the original Linux individuality. And these days, folk LIKE - and want - stuff that "just works". It appears that tolerance of 'individuality' is at an all-time low.....and continues to drop.)

Better than 95%+ of people are seemingly content to just be part of the herd. Because it's less "hassle".

(shrug....)

Mike.

[proebler]

wiak/Gr

Yes, please release who the members were in those stats.

this was the result of the analysis of Topic pages 1,5,10,15 .... 55 :
Number of posts 337, posted by 23 members
172 posts (51%) by just 3 members
205 posts (60%) by just 4 members
237 posts (70%) by just 5 members
258 posts (76%) by just 6 members

Does it really matter?
Just stats.
No offense to any of them!

[dimkr]

172 posts (51%) by just 3 members (deleted names)

lol, I'm so ashamed! How many of those were mine?

[puppy_apprentice]

lol, I'm so ashamed! How many of those were mine?

Let's share without going into who wrote more: 1/3.

In my case: 237/(5+0.5) = almost 50 (less than 50 more than 20).
237(5+me)-172(3)=65/2,5(2+me)=26 (circa about)

I suppose the + means a smaller share in the number of posts.

[greengeek]

Inquisition
/ (ˌɪnkwɪˈzɪʃən) /

a deep or searching inquiry, esp ...of individuals in order to suppress revolt or root out the unorthodox

That's an interesting quote. I would think "unorthodox" is at the very heart of all things Puppy...

[Grey]

I noticed that with the deletion of two topics I lost some thanks. I jumped HerrBert in the ranking, and now I've dropped. Why, why, why? Now I'm going to cry

That's not fair anymore

I'm Grey! My cloak flutters in the wind like a banner of freedom, and my mask hides my cunning narrowed eyes! I am in a hurry to help the disadvantaged and offended !

Oh, no... I'm sorry - an attack of sciatica. I will no longer be able to fight for our "thanks" as I fought for the integrity of the voting

[fredx181]

I noticed that with the deletion of two topics I lost some thanks. I jumped HerrBert in the ranking, and now I've dropped. Why, why, why? Now I'm going to cry

Small comfort ... I gave you a thanks just now.
Please anyone: it's a big tragedy, donate some thanks (if you can miss it of course) to @puppy_apprentice !

[dancytron]

.....or even dropping support for X.Org (like RHEL 10).

And that's IT, TBH. In a nutshell.

Whether we like it or not, RHEL dictates the direction of Linux development.....probably because their devs contribute more to Linux kernel & infrastructure development than everybody else combined. And, sooner or later, everybody else "steps into line"......because by doing so, everything just "works". And continues to do so.

(The fact that Lennart Poettering is a complete plank - AND a right 'primadonna' into the bargain - is neither here nor there. In the grand scheme of things, it's irrelevant..!)

Why "spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar"? (Even though, in truth, it does detract from some of the original Linux individuality. And these days, folk LIKE - and want - stuff that "just works". It appears that tolerance of 'individuality' is at an all-time low.....and continues to drop.)

Better than 95%+ of people are seemingly content to just be part of the herd. Because it's less "hassle".

(shrug....)

Mike.

Systemd was such a missed opportunity to make linux user friendly. Making the only supported way to configure the system being to run a script in the terminal and then being dumped into nano to edit a file that is even more cryptic (although more uniform) than the file it is replacing when children are learning to program in beautiful ide's with inline help for everything seems kind of dumb.

[wiak]

172 posts (51%) by just 3 members (deleted names)

I'm not surprised at all. Threads we have interest in are for posting to I believe. However, if the deep analysis inquisition is intended to make something wrong out of that, I have no problem remedying that by posting less to the forum more generally in compensation. Some others with larger overall forum post counts might have to restrict the amount of posts they contribute too in that case.

[stemsee]

Yes, please release who the members were in those stats.

this was the result of the analysis of Topic pages 1,5,10,15 .... 55 :
Number of posts 337, posted by 23 members
172 posts (51%) by just 3 members
205 posts (60%) by just 4 members
237 posts (70%) by just 5 members
258 posts (76%) by just 6 members

Does it really matter?
Just stats.
No offense to any of them!

Thanks!

Could you also provide word counts for "just 3 members". I am not trying to attribute blame, I am concerned with style and concision.....as the Bible says, "in the midst of many words, sin is not absent."

[bigpup]

About how many thanks you can rack up on the forum.

You are in the wrong forum!

The only info about someone, that is of any useful help, is how many posts they have done.

That, to some degree, helps to understand, they may have some working knowledge about Puppy, and how things work. (maybe!)

I do see that having the thanks icon, to click on, has increased people thanking others.

But before it was added.

Very little thank you was posted, I think because it required making a thank you post, for the specific topic.

---

The last thing forum moderators want to do is be forced to delete something.

The terms of the forum tell us what should be deleted or not allowed.

But I think we all use a little judgement about it.

If two members are passing insults, back and forth, about each other.
It is basically a school yard battle of insults.
As long as it stops in a short couple of posts and they seem to now be getting along. No more insults.
Well it is over!
But if the comments are really that bad, we may still delete some, if not all.

But if someone has to constantly make derogatory remarks, about other members, about in every post, they make or every few posts.
That needs to be stopped.
The other members deserve the respect and should not have to deal with or see it!

[wiak]

Yes, please release who the members were in those stats.

this was the result of the analysis of Topic pages 1,5,10,15 .... 55 :
Number of posts 337, posted by 23 members
172 posts (51%) by just 3 members (deleted members names)
205 posts (60%) by just 4 members (deleted members names)
237 posts (70%) by just 5 members (deleted members names)
258 posts (76%) by just 6 members (deleted members names)
Does it really matter?
Just stats.
No offense to any of them!

Thanks!

Could you also provide word counts for "just 3 members". I am not trying to attribute blame, I am concerned with style and concision.....as the Bible says, "in the midst of many words, sin is not absent."

I object very strongly to this 'naming posters' behaviour as if there is something wrong with posting.
I totally object in the strongest terms to the further posting of religious propaganda.
I insist such behaviour stops now. Such behaviour is against forum standards of behaviour which involves acts of incitement, attempted persecution of individuals, and serious animosity.

[trawglodyte]

we have water in the holds and the engines are sputtering here at Puppy Linux

You could have fooled me. I try Linux distros all the time that would just LOVE to have the supportive team you have. It's cool that you want it to be better, but y'all should remember to give yourself some credit and a pat on the back every once in awhile.

[stemsee]

I totally object in the strongest terms to the further posting of religious propaganda.
I insist such behaviour stops now. Such behaviour is against forum standards of behaviour which involves acts of incitement, attempted persecution of individuals, and serious animosity.

Quoting the most published, read and quoted book in the history of mankind is hardly religious propaganda. Any edit:"reputable and trustworthy" academic will know the importance of reference & bibliography. I could instead reference Greek, Latin and modern classics which pretty much echo the same facts. However those classics 100% of the time reference the Bible. The Bible, Tao Te Qing, I Qing, etc are historically significant documents, they themselves are not religions. Calling history propaganda with the implication that it is false or misleading without evidence must also surely be against forum rules.

Concision refers to programming style also in that a script which has been optimized would not be unnecessarily verbose! Unless it was trying to obfuscate or confuse the reader.

If I post a script you would all check the line count. Would you not?

[Clarity]

Hi @stemsee

I think what @wiak is trying to get all of us to see is that its time to stop religious references and other, and let's get back to working in technological references that the forum aligns; namely lets all get back to mainline "Puppy Linux Discussion" on the forum.

Dont you agree?

[Grey]

Yes, some books are often quoted in literature and cinema. But there is a limit after all. If a couple in the bushes shouts something about God during sexual intercourse, then this is NOT religious propaganda, but a habit. If someone inserts psalms into posts with a frequency through the second sentence to the third, then there are possible options.

We will be able to count and check the lines in the script, but we will not be able to count the number and quality of sins committed in Sodom and Gomorrah.

@rockedge If these two start again, I promise to turn a blind eye even to a vote consisting of just one point

[proebler]

blah.. blah.. blah..

this thread is going the same way the deleted one did
the deleted one is history
this one, in time, will be history too
and nothing will be lost or lacking

[Grey]

blah.. blah.. blah..

this thread is going the same way the deleted one did

Of course blah blah blah. And what did you expect from a topic that mourns a deleted one? People always remember the deceased at the wake.

[bugnaw333]

In my country we mourn our deceased at least 1 week with free snacks at night of course.

[Clarity]

Hi Fred. You are one of the few, I think, wont take this post the wrong way.

... Let me agree and disagree (and finally perhaps we agree to disagree )
Shut down the off-topic area ? I disagree (and probably many others too, I guess), and IMO it's too easy to say "just throw away what may cause problems". ...

The topic "Off Topic" should be relabeled to something else or, best, gotten rid of. We have many other areas of the forum where a techological topic or product can be discussed, presently, already. We dont need that area. It only, subconsciously, distorts the mission of the forum.

What you are proposing is to remain the title-topic with NO REAL resolution except to wish the forum doesn't divulge into a repeat of this kind of behavior in the future. The evidence we have, even aside from our emotional expectations, is that somehow others will not use this area for what we have witnessed several times in the past over topics NOT related to advancement or use of Puppy and the technology that we have in the world.

I'd, like you, would wish that we are smarter. Just as is done with technology over and over in Puppyland, when something is broken we fix, improve it, or abandon it because of issues it presents.

I think, you and I agree, on this for the stuff done for PUPs, programs, and distros.

Off-topic INVITES non-technology topics.

So, my concern is NOT to preserve a broken past, but to envision a path forward eliminating the kind of breakage that forces demands on moderators when we can avoid it.

Your comment to the moderators ask them to do more work! I suggest we reduce that stress and reduce the need for that workload.

That is what I feel is helpful to the overall community going forward.

Something beneficial versus something that support erroneous conditions requiring correctional actions at a high/higher frequency.

[dimkr]

y'all should remember to give yourself some credit and a pat on the back every once in awhile.

... and remind people who post explicit, hateful opinions that their opinions are not wanted here, so their future posts don't need to be deleted.

[trawglodyte]

... and remind people who post explicit, hateful opinions that their opinions are not wanted here, so their future posts don't need to be deleted.

I make every effort to be as explicit as possible.

However, I love everybody, don't hate anyone. I am critical of the government of Israel though.
If you feel that warrants taking actions against me, do what you gotta do @dimkr
I expected you would when I said it.

Alternatively, when I leave an encouraging and complimetary post on a thread, you could consider just leaving it alone rather than quote-replying with unwarranted accusations and threats.

[rockedge]

I have an issue with booting KLV-Hyprland-CE in a QEMU machine! Where KLV-Sway-RE-1 with the 14KLV_labwc_sfwbar.sfs add-on does boot as does @wiak 's KLV-SwayBase on my system.

A real mystery so far. This one is solvable. Religion isn't.

@stemsee what will it take to get you to stop pushing what ever religion your pushing here?