S15Pup - Discussion

[retiredt00]

Yes, Retiredt00, great idea. Add weight and complexity to all Puppys so that you won't have to identify the Broadcom model you actually need.

I can appreciate that some people want to try to identify their wifi driver and want the system simple enough so they can play with it without necessarily delving into it.
Hopefully you can appreciate that some people want a usable friendly OS to just use.
Regarding size, the vanilladpup10 ISO is 760MB and Easy 4.4 825MB. Add some office apps etc will become 1 GB.
Regarding actual complexity I hear woof-CE is pretty complex as is. Do you have any reason to believe that adding dkms (or any other package) is particularly complex?
And the end of the day, dkms is a kernel infrastructure used by almost all distribution out there. Why is it triggering such an mocking reaction from you?

(editorial changes)

[wanderer]

hi all

one of the main attractions of puppy is its small size

this is very important
when you are downloading an iso
or running in ram

however many applications are very large
and will probably get larger

browsers

wireless

office suites

etc

in addition there are an infinite number of applications
so adding everything that anyone might possibly want
will make the puppy iso infinitely large

if the puppy community was willing to
download and use a 5 gig iso
they would use mint

my suggestion is that the gurus create a small core iso

and make all the large applications into sfs files
that can be downloaded as desired

then the user can decide how big
he wants his personal version to be


the other advantage is that the gurus
could concentrate on the core iso

which might be a task that human beings
could accomplish in a reasonable period of time

the other larger additions could be maintained
by other individuals or taken from other distros


in my opinion this is in the spirit of puppy
since its kind of a tinker toy

tinycore uses this idea
though admittedly in a more extreme way


being all things to all people
is both impossible and undesirable

wanderer

[mistfire]

however many applications are very large
and will probably get larger

browsers

wireless

office suites

For me these are the major contributors of bloats on Puppy
* Browsers
* Media Players
* icu4c
* mesa-dri
* opengl and vulkan
* ffmpeg
* Locales
* GTK docs
* Ghostcript
* Samba active directory files
* Perl pot files
* doc and man files
* Python
* dev files

[wanderer]

hi all
.
im not saying take the trouble to strip down puppy

in fact im saying dont take any trouble at all

S15 works well for most people

the odd missing piece can be added later by the individual that needs it

im using S15pup32 RC2 and its doing everything i need it to do

so as far as im concerned its finished

after it is released to general use

development and enhancements can continue forever

.
as i said

being all things to all people

is neither possible nor desirable

.
wanderer

[ozsouth]

@wanderer - I agree - the base is very good. Folk can add what they want or need. I edited initrd.gz to allow b,c,d,e drv for extra sfs apps. Then today I made an overlayfs version.

[dimkr]

Regarding size, the vanilladpup10 ISO is 760MB

That's mostly because it includes all documentation (38 MB), all locales and Firefox language packs (162 MB), all VA API drivers (probably many MBs), an extremely Debian-like kernel with the same selection of drivers (around 90 MB), a huge pile of firmware (89 MB) and a "kbuild" SFS containing the portion of kernel sources needed by DKMS (23 MB). The main SFS is 331 MB and includes Firefox and mpv (plus codecs): it's comparable to S15Pup in terms of size.

Therefore, S1Pup won't grow much if it gains DKMS support. The question is what to do with devx - DKMS needs GCC, make and so on. Vanilla Dpup doesn't need gcc because apt install broadcom-sta-dkms will install dependencies like dkms and GCC, but S15Pup has the traditional main SFS/devx split.

[thinkpadfreak]

Hello.

I am afraid the version (or package) of mtPaint included in S15Pup is not ready for localization. Those included in Slacko64 7.0 and ScPup64 are not, either.

I would like to ask that the package of mtPaint be replaced with another version (or package).

[peebee]

Hello.

I am afraid the version (or package) of mtPaint included in S15Pup is not ready for localization. Those included in Slacko64 7.0 and ScPup64 are not, either.

I would like to ask that the package of mtPaint be replaced with another version (or package).

:mtpaint:|pet|Packages-puppy-slacko14.2-official|mtpaint-3.49.12-i686_s700|mtpaint|3.49.12-i686_s700||Graphic|808||mtpaint-3.49.12-i686_s700.pet|+gtk+2|Painting program to create pixel art and manipulate digital photos|slackware|14.2||

mtpaint-3.49.12-i686_s700.pet 2017-Jun-03 06:18:03 330.9K
http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/pe ... 6_s700.pet

Please say why "is not ready for localization"?

Please suggest alternative of similar size and preferably GTK2.

[retiredt00]

Vanilla Dpup doesn't need gcc because apt install broadcom-sta-dkms will install dependencies like dkms and GCC, but S15Pup has the traditional main SFS/devx split.

Good day
I indeed tried this in Dpup and is only 16 packages sizing 11 MB

Code: Select all

64K	./binutils_2.39-8_amd64.deb
2.3M	./binutils-common_2.39-8_amd64.deb
2.1M	./binutils-x86-64-linux-gnu_2.39-8_amd64.deb
104K	./dctrl-tools_2.24-3+b1_amd64.deb
12K	./dh-dkms_3.0.6-4_all.deb
48K	./dkms_3.0.6-4_all.deb
2.3M	./dpkg-dev_1.21.9_all.deb
536K	./libbinutils_2.39-8_amd64.deb
88K	./libctf0_2.39-8_amd64.deb
152K	./libctf-nobfd0_2.39-8_amd64.deb
1.6M	./libdpkg-perl_1.21.9_all.deb
796K	./libgprofng0_2.39-8_amd64.deb
20K	./libpcc-dev_1.2.0~DEVEL+20211015-1_amd64.deb
388K	./make_4.3-4.1_amd64.deb
128K	./patch_2.7.6-7_amd64.deb
316K	./pcc_1.2.0~DEVEL+20220331-1_amd64.deb
11M	.

So even with the 23MB of kbuild is 33MB total.
Does not look like a lot to be able to install any non-free kernel module/driver or even experimental ones.
Would also allow to build a "free" puppy and will still be usable in a variety of hardware requiring proprietary drivers.

[thinkpadfreak]

Please say why "is not ready for localization"?

Please suggest alternative of similar size and preferably GTK2.

I suspect that the function of localization is not compiled in. The interface remains in English even though .mo file exists.

I tried the version found below:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/mtpain ... aint/3.50/

Its interface is in Japanese under the Japanese environment.

[BarryK]

Please say why "is not ready for localization"?

Please suggest alternative of similar size and preferably GTK2.

I suspect that the function of localization is not compiled in. The interface remains in English even though .mo file exists.

I tried the version found below:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/mtpain ... aint/3.50/

Its interface is in Japanese under the Japanese environment.

I looked at that link, I wonder why the tarballs are so big? 3.5MB!!!

I've got mtpaint 3.49.12 for EasyOS, the x86_64 tarball, xz-compressed and it is 493KB. I expanded it, then created a gzipped tarball, to find out size -- 748KB. Hmmm.

Anyway, here they are:

https://distro.ibiblio.org/easyos/x86/p ... 686.tar.xz

https://distro.ibiblio.org/easyos/amd64 ... -64.tar.xz

If you want to open them up and create PETs, you are welcome. You would need to test that they work in S15pup, in case a dependency is missing. Also, they were compiled with glibc 2.33 -- it can sometimes be a problem if try to run with an older glibc.

EDIT:
Curiosity overcame me. Downloaded the mtpaint x86_64 tarball from sourceforge and opened it up.
Ah, that's why it is bigger -- it has the full html documentation, whereas my tarball only has the man page.

[peebee]

Thanks @BarryK

I'll maybe try the Woof-CE mtpaint petbuild:
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/w ... t/petbuild

and see how big that is.

[dimkr]

So even with the 23MB of kbuild is 33MB total.
Does not look like a lot to be able to install any non-free kernel module/driver or even experimental ones.
Would also allow to build a "free" puppy and will still be usable in a variety of hardware requiring proprietary drivers.

I agree, that's not much. I'll see if it's really a 11 MB increase when these packages go to the main SFS. I remember it's much more due to the block-based nature of Squashfs, compared to ar or tar archives.

It's a good experiment: if it succeeds and other Puppy family distros (especially "official" ones) adopt this, many hardware support issues in Puppy will just disappear.

[peebee]

I'll maybe try the Woof-CE mtpaint petbuild:

and see how big that is.

@thinkpadfreak

It's exactly the same size so presumably behaves the same vis-a-vis localisation.........

Is it possible to say how the petbuild should be altered??

[dimkr]

It's exactly the same size so presumably behaves the same vis-a-vis localisation.........

The petbuild definitely supports localisation, in dpup I have these files:

Code: Select all

/usr/share/locale/cs/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/de/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/es/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/fr/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/gl/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/hu/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/it/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/ja/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/kab/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/nl/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/pl/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/pt/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/pt_BR/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/ru/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/sk/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/sv/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/tl/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/tr/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/zh_CN/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo
/usr/share/locale/zh_TW/LC_MESSAGES/mtpaint.mo

[thinkpadfreak]

@thinkpadfreak

It's exactly the same size so presumably behaves the same vis-a-vis localisation.........

Is it possible to say how the petbuild should be altered??

I am not complaining about the form of the package. Any form (pet, tgz, txz) will be OK as long as it works. But mtpaint-3.49.12-x86_64_s700.pet doesn't get localized even though mtpaint.mo is present.

[thinkpadfreak]

But mtpaint-3.49.12-x86_64_s700.pet doesn't get localized even though mtpaint.mo is present.

I tried removing mtpaint.mo and running MoManager.
mtpaint is not listed as "Binary executables that don't have a mo file." I suspect that the application is not compiled so that it may be localized.

[OscarTalks]

The configure script in the mtpaint source code package is a rather unconventional one. It looks like you need to compile with intl included in the configure options which the mtpaint petbuild does appear to have, so I would expect that one to be OK (as dimkr confirms). It may be that in some earlier builds the intl option was (deliberately or inadvertently) not included. More commonly I would expect to see --enable-nls or --disable-nls as the configure option when compiling.

[dimkr]

Double-confirmation that localization works with the petbuild (dpup with nlsx loaded)

[thinkpadfreak]

OscarTalks' explanation seems convincing to me.

I wonder why mtpaint-3.49.12-x86_64_s700.pet continued to be used in Slacko64 7.0, ScPup64 and S15Pup64.
It is strange that few people have paid attention to the localization of the package.

[OscarTalks]

I am afraid the version (or package) of mtPaint included in S15Pup is not ready for localization. Those included in Slacko64 7.0 and ScPup64 are not, either.
I would like to ask that the package of mtPaint be replaced with another version (or package).

Hello thinkpadfreak,
I compiled mtPaint-3.50.09 in S15Pup64 using:-
./configure --prefix=/usr gtk2 gtkfilesel gtkcolsel thread release intl
I will upload the packages in case you wish to test them
http://smokey01.com/OscarTalks/mtPaint- ... 4-s15p.pet (main)
http://smokey01.com/OscarTalks/mtPaint_ ... 4-s15p.pet (NLS)

NOTES
I used the gtk file and colour selectors (same as the petbuild) but I think the native mtpaint ones are also OK
I think "release" covers optimisations so other cflags are not then needed
I think it is OK to let the configure script autodetect all libraries - no point in disabling webp for example if the library is installed
The intl option is definitely needed for internationalisation
The configure script prints the details before you build:-

Code: Select all

mtPaint Configuration
---------------------

-------
General
-------

    Version             3.50.09
    System              GNU/Linux
    Toolkit             GTK+2
    Lists               GTK+2
    File Picker         gtkfilesel
    Colour Picker       gtkcolsel
    Animation Package   Gifsicle
    Use FreeType        YES
    Use CMS             LittleCMS2
    Icon set            icons1
    Internationalized   YES
    Multithreaded       YES

--------
Compiler
--------

    Optimizations       RELEASE
    CFLAGS              -O2  -fweb -fomit-frame-pointer -fmodulo-sched -fcommon
    LDFLAGS             -Wl,--as-needed -s 
    Static libraries    NONE

----------
File Types
----------

    Use JPEG            YES
    Use JPEG 2000       OpenJPEG2
    Use TIFF            YES
    Use WebP            YES

------------
Installation
------------

    Binary install      /usr/bin
    Locale install      /usr/share/locale
    Locale program      /usr/share/locale
    Install man page    NO

# 

[thinkpadfreak]

I compiled mtPaint-3.50.09 in S15Pup64

Thanks.
I installed the packages, and they seem to work fine. (I have not yet tried the application in detail.)

I hope this version or some other version ready for internationalization will be included in S15Pup.
I have prepared a Japanese language pack for S15Pup64. I don't mind if .mo file is omitted from the iso, since the language pack includes one.

[peebee]

I compiled mtPaint-3.50.09 in S15Pup64

Thanks.
I installed the packages, and they seem to work fine. (I have not yet tried the application in detail.)

I hope this version or some other version ready for internationalization will be included in S15Pup.
I have prepared a Japanese language pack for S15Pup64. I don't mind if .mo file is omitted from the iso, since the language pack includes one.

Thanks @OscarTalks
thread release looks different to petbuild..........?? ./configure gtk2 gtkfilesel gtkcolsel cflags nojp2 notiff nowebp nolcms intl --prefix=/usr

@thinkpadfreak

Did you install both pets? The NLS pet is not included in the iso..............
The NLS for the included MtPaint can be found at:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/pe ... 4_s700.pet

I presume I can get Woof-CE to build an NLSX.sfs ..... but haven't done that before .....

[OscarTalks]

thread release looks different to petbuild..........?? ./configure gtk2 gtkfilesel gtkcolsel cflags nojp2 notiff nowebp nolcms intl --prefix=/usr

The thread option (multithreading) seems to be the default but I included it anyway. The alternative is nothread to disable multithreading
The release option loads a cluster of optimisations for CFLAGS so I think you don't then need the cflags option

Code: Select all

cflags ........... Use CFLAGS environment variable
CFLAGS ........... C compiler flags (not recommended; for enabling better optimizations use 'release' option instead)

The gtkfilesel and gtkcolsel options are just personal choice, optionally leave them out to use native mtpaint selector windows
The options like nojp2 notiff nowebp nolcms will disable support for certain image formats. I do not see any reason for doing this unless you encounter a problem in building or running mtpaint. They are just links to system shared libraries, so if the libraries are present I think it is best to use them and have support enabled. Leave these options out and the configure script autodetects those present in system and enables them.
This is what I concluded from reading the documentation, especially the output of ./configure --help plus a bit of testing. Others may know more than me so feel free to correct me if I am wrong about anything.

[thinkpadfreak]

Did you install both pets? The NLS pet is not included in the iso..............
The NLS for the included MtPaint can be found at:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/pe ... 4_s700.pet

Did you test the package?
Of course I tried the "NLS for the included mtPaint" before, but it was useless probably because the mtPaint main package is not compiled with the function of internationalization.

mtpaint.mo is included in the language pack I made. My opinion is that NLSX sfs is not necessarily needed because most of the .mo files are included in language packs.

[peebee]

b772aa887fd6c17f3cf972a404407381 S15Pup32-22.11-RC3.iso
f2e394c797336eecb03cc4e877c8686f S15Pup64-22.11-RC3.iso

also NLSX for S15Pup64

mtpaint is petbuild, fdrv updated, cd playing no longer automatic - click the SR0 desktop icon

with NLSX French seems to work.......

Capture.png (193.5 KiB) Viewed 3297 times

[wanderer]

hi peebee

decided to try the 64 bit flavor

posting from it now

no problems yet

wanderer

[peebee]

also available - LXDE-ydrvs

[OscarTalks]

Downloaded S15Pup64-22.11-RC3 and noticed that Psip Sip Phone does not start because of a symbol lookup error. Problem is the newer openSSL library I think. Maybe needs jamesbond to look at the source if he is willing. I was looking at psip some while back and have forgotten the exact details. I think it can be recompiled and a lot of the functions will still work, but it has to be without TLS transport unless you include an older openssl along with the existing one as a workaround, but I would need to delve back into it to remind myself. I think psip is very nice and would like to see it stay in, but if it is not maintained then it might need to be dropped. It did have something of a fan club at one time, but not sure how much it gets used these days.

[Clarity]

Tested RC3 ISO file booting via SG2D. No issues to desktop. During boot, it found the 2 prior Session saves and listed them for selection. I chose '0' for a pristine boot. All is well and an RC3 session saved upon exit.

Did not test kVM boot as yet, but confident that if it boots bare-metal, it WILL boot in a KVM in the same way as was reported with earlier RCs.

Sweet!