rEFInd - alternative to grub

[trawglodyte]

rEFInd finds all the boot options on your system and displays them in a nice-looking graphical interface on startup or reboot.
https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/index.html
note- this is only for EFI systems, see "What's Your Boot Mode" in contents of above link if you need more info.
rEFInd is super easy to install and use on BookwormPup64_10.0.4, just

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apt install refind
refind-install

You can also download a .deb if you want, I tried it both ways.

It is different from grub in that selecting one of the options (Debian, Puppy LInux, whatever entries it finds) doesn't launch that OS, it shows you that OS's grub menu, then you choose from those options. It does this quickly though, you don't have to wait for a reboot or anything. While this is a bit redundant, it may be useful if you have several Puppy's. You can select the Puppy grub from rEFInd and then pick from them. Alternatively, you can just drop your pupp.iso's in Ventoy if you have that on your hard drive and boot them from there.

rEFInd is a bit more extensive in finding things than grub. One thing I am particularly pleased with is I have Ventoy on my hard drive and I've never been able to get it in a grub menu. rEFInd found it automatically, and also found the Puppy efiI created with the "Boot" button in FrugalPup installer.

rEFInd is so good at finding these options it may list multiples. You usually want the one that says grubx64.efi in the text below it. If you want to get rid of the extras just highlight them and press delete. They will be moved to a menu below and you can add them back later if you want.

If you try it, your boot screen will look something like this.

[trawglodyte]

I thought this was interesting, from the website linked in the first post

"Although rEFInd is, first and foremost, a tool for launching EFI-based OSes, rEFInd is one of the few EFI boot programs that can redirect the boot process to BIOS-based OSes."

There are some cool OS's that don't do EFI, and you may be able to boot them with rEFInd. I hope that's not confusing. While rEFInd must be installed on and EFI system, it may allow you to put a non-EFI OS on that system and boot it.

One thing rEFInd can't do that grub can is boot an .iso, as far as I know. But a workaround is to use Ventoy, boot VTOYEFI with rEFInd, and VTOYEFI will boot almost any .iso you drop in it's Ventoy parition.

[williwaw]

Barry used refind in easy until recently switching to limine. (Easy can be installed as a disk image with dd)
https://bkhome.org/news/202206/limine-b ... asyos.html

pretty sure grub can do submenus and graphics, although maybe not both together

[trawglodyte]

pretty sure grub can do submenus and graphics, although maybe not both together

You can get very nice themes for your grub menu, or make them yourself. Darkmatter has OS themes, but he hasn't made a Puppy Linux theme yet. https://gitlab.com/VandalByte/darkmatter-grub-theme

rEFInd looks a little better out of the box, but what I mostly like is it will list Ventoy, it will list if you make an entry from Puppy Linux with the "Boot" button in the frugal pup installer, and it updates automatically. No "update-grub" ever.

I'm going to move some things around on my disks here and see if I can just boot the Pup's from Ventoy and keep their save files on another partition, like @Clarity described.

[williwaw]

@trawglodyte
what will ventoy itself do that grub2 cannot?
it is my understanding each OS capable of being booted by ventoy requires ventoy proprietary support whereas grub2 does not.

[Clarity]

... it is my understanding each OS capable of being booted by ventoy requires ventoy proprietary support whereas grub2 does not.

Where did you get that understanding? I am unable to find that.

@williwaw I offer this idea. Its cost is zero, I think, for you.

Idea

1. It ONLY takes 5 minues to create a Ventoy USB, max (No matter if you create if from Ventoy ISO boot, or Ventoy Window's exe, or Linux script). ... usually this step creating the USB takes under a minute.

2. On the USB's 1st partition (its labeled ventoy) add a folder named BOOTISOS (this folder helps with some Puppyland distros; explained later)

3. Dump 1 or many ISO files into that folder

4. Boot the Ventoy USB you created in step 1, above.

The max cost to you in time is a mere 10 min MAXIMUM for this simple setup.

Ventoy does NOT install anything on your PC or anywhere. It is merely a friendly, easy to use, ISO file boot launcher. All the work is done by the ISO you select from the list presented.

Ventoy seems to be written using GRUB2's command lines to achieve the functionality it produces.

Let us know what you see. I think as soon as you see it, all will become instantly apparent. And, it can reduce your workload, too.

I will monitor this page for your insights, reactions, issues, or questions to help. There are others who may step in to help you as well.

[trawglodyte]

@trawglodyte
what will ventoy itself do that grub2 cannot?
it is my understanding each OS capable of being booted by ventoy requires ventoy proprietary support whereas grub2 does not.

If you put Ventoy on hard drive, put a Puppy.iso in it's partition, and get rEFIned with that Puppy. All you have to do to install another pup is download the .iso to the Ventoy partition. Well, you'd probably want to make a folder somewhere for your pupsaves, but that's it. No menu-entry, no update-grub.

Grub doesn't automatically find Ventoy, I haven't been able to get it to work with chainloader menu-entry either.

It's the combination of Ventoy being ready to boot Puppy and whatever other .iso you want as soon as you put it in the Ventoy partition. ....and that rEFInd automatically finds Ventoy as soon as you install it that I like.

Does Grub have your iso ready to boot and start using as soon as it downloads?

This is a little more complicated, but what I do is mount Ventoy from a Ventoy folder in my home directory on startup with fstab, from all my Linux OS's. I do the same for Documents, Downloads, Music, Pictures, and Videos. They each have a partition too.

Whatever I put in my Documents folder when I'm using BionicPup64 will be in my Documents folder in Debian or Deepin, etc...

For the record I have had one .iso that didn't work with Ventoy. Out of about 60.

[trawglodyte]

This is what I'm cooking up.

Install Ventoy to hard drive (this is only an option for someone willing to wipe a hard drive, and you're gonna have to be EFI and use gpt partition tables).

Put a Pup.iso in the Ventoy partition. (I've verified BookwormPup64_10.0.4 and BookwormPup64_10.0.3 will work, but I'm confident many others will too)

Boot to Ventoy, and click the Pup .iso

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apt install refind
refind-install

Now you have a system that will give you a nice menu in startup, infinitely configurable with the grub menus it launches, and installing another Pup is downloading the .iso to the Ventoy partition. For me, a folder in the Home directory of every Linux distro I put on my computer.

Alternatively, you can frugal install Pups on a partition, do the "Boot" button in frugalinstaller, and then you'll have the Pup grub as an option in rEFInd.

[trawglodyte]

@Clarity

Just to let you know. I plugged a Ventoy USB in and rebooted my computer. It's there in rEFInd automatically.

That works too with rEFInd, if you don't want to (or can't) put Ventoy on your hard drive.

For some reason I sort of think it would be a good idea for the OS that you install rEFInd with to be on hard drive vs a USB, but it might not matter. rEFInd puts the files it needs in the EFI parition, so maybe it really doesn't matter.

If you try it let me know. I'm just trying imagine if there would be some issue when you start your computer without the Ventoy USB plugged in.

[williwaw]

I haven't been able to get it to work with chainloader menu-entry either.

did you see?
https://forum.zorin.com/t/chainloading-ventoy/25602/3

It's the combination of Ventoy being ready to boot Puppy and whatever other .iso you want as soon as you put it in the Ventoy partition. ....and that rEFInd automatically finds Ventoy as soon as you install it that I like.

saving a few steps seems worthwhile

For the record I have had one .iso that didn't work with Ventoy. Out of about 60.

not a bad track record.

@Clarity maybe I confused this project with another.
I am still looking for a ventoy like project that would allow any conventional distros iso to drop in and run with a union fs and have persistence.
I do keep some dedicated pups exclusivly to run specialized apps that are a pain to keep updated when my daily driver updates, but dont have any apps that require a specialized OS run. So at this point in time I have very little use for booting iso's that I cannot have persistence with.

BTW, should we ask a mod to have this moved out of the bookworm section?

[trawglodyte]

BTW, should we ask a mod to have this moved out of the bookworm section?

If you think it should be, I don't care. I mainly put it here to show two simple terminal commands, i.e.-

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apt install refind
refind-install

let a BookwormPup frugal install have a startup screen that can launch their Puppy grub, Linux grubs, Windows bootmanager, Ventoy, any USB installer they might have plugged in and probably more.

I don't know how many other pups have apt and can do it this way. We did veer off course a bit, but nobody who finds this thread is required to read all our jibber-jabber.

[Clarity]

Hi @williwaw

... @Clarity maybe I confused this project with another.
I am still looking for a ventoy like project that would allow any conventional distros iso to drop in and run with a union fs and have persistence.
I do keep some dedicated pups exclusivly to run specialized apps that are a pain to keep updated when my daily driver updates, but dont have ...

Seems you haven't set a test Ventoy USB. Those distros should work similar to all the 1000s of Distrowatch distros. Let me know of some distro that you are having difficulties and I will test on one of the test PCs, here.

Again, create you USB stick, add a folder named BOOTISOS on the ventoy partition and boot the ISO files you placed in the BOOTISOS folder.

@trawglodyte you mentioned something, I feel, is very important with the disks you set; namely "gpt'.

Advice to all who help Windows and MAC users/students. When you create your Ventoy USB

• Choose GPT and choose Secure Boot for modern machines.

The 'Ventoy create utility' you use will create the USB/disk so that its consistent with the user's PC(s) from the manufacturer.

Lastly, I suggest that users add SG2D's ISO or IMG file to the BOOTISOS folder, too.

The info provided is helpful not only for the many BookwormPUP64 users, but also applicable to all the forum and broadly applicable to all linux ISO & IMG files, too.

Hope this helps

[williwaw]

Hi @williwaw

... @Clarity maybe I confused this project with another.
I am still looking for a ventoy like project that would allow any conventional distros iso to drop in and run with a union fs and have persistence. ...

Let me know of some distro that you are having difficulties and I will test on one of the test PCs, here.

thanks
I can boot freebsd and void iso's with ventoy but I am at a loss as how to add persistence.

[Clarity]

Hi @williwaw

... @Clarity maybe I confused this project with another.
I am still looking for a ventoy like project that would allow any conventional distros iso to drop in and run with a union fs and have persistence. ...

Let me know of some distro that you are having difficulties and I will test on one of the test PCs, here.

thanks
I can boot freebsd and void iso's with ventoy but I am at a loss as how to add persistence.

Yes, I understand where you're at now.
Yes, booting is separate from persistence. For me, I found this works BEST as it overcomes some/much of other things that could crop making persistence and management a nightmare. So, I simplified it this way:

1. ON THE PC's SYSTEM DRIVE, I create/carved-out/setup a separate partition that is used for partitions of ALL running systems.

2. I named the partition "Persistence" and on this partition, I created a folder named "Sessions'.

Now, all ISOs I boot that offer their means of saving the user session, the system is guided to maintain the session in that folder. Further, the booting system is guided to that folder where if finds their session, if present.

For example for a pristine boot BookwormPUP64, I will interrupt its boot menu adding this parm to the linux line psave=Persistence:/Sessions/ so that BookwormPUP64 knows where its session is to be managed.

Another example:using another forum distro, say one of the KLs. They already possess this built in boot menu instructions for users and keeps the sessions there making it really simple for KL distro users.

For forum's FATDOG distros, I use its similar parm so that FATDOG manages its session in that folder; savefile=ram:device:Persistence:/Sessions/Fatdog/

Ubuntu...similarly